Ed Mutha Fuqua - I have nothing against lessons and teachers, I just don't agree that everyone has to take lessons to be worth anything.
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Self taught???
- Thread starter ldiezman
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Ed Mutha Fuqua - I have nothing against lessons and teachers, I just don't agree that everyone has to take lessons to be worth anything.
If learning and thorough understanding is the moon, then a good teacher is a finger pointing at the moon. The internalization of learning can only be done by yourself. But if we are to find the moon, and I'm talking about the real deal, we do need an accurate map. That's where a GOOD teacher/mentor/yoda can make all the difference.
I've had a handful of teachers, but the teachers I've met since I've become a more advanced player have not really been able to show me what I want. But I am keeping my eyes open for an enlightened musician who can help me realize my goals. In the meantime, I'm listening and transcribing as much as I can. I'm looking for a direct path, but I am kind of lost on my own. But at least I figure transcibing Bird is a step in the right direction.
I've had a handful of teachers, but the teachers I've met since I've become a more advanced player have not really been able to show me what I want. But I am keeping my eyes open for an enlightened musician who can help me realize my goals. In the meantime, I'm listening and transcribing as much as I can. I'm looking for a direct path, but I am kind of lost on my own. But at least I figure transcibing Bird is a step in the right direction.
Ed, I just want to clarify that I wasn't implying any disagreement or misundertanding with your posts.
My point about having to internalize what you learn just illustrates what I consider to be the many beauties of music that may not exist or aren't as obvious in other disciplines. Let's say someone takes an "academic" course at a university. The student will be evaluated based on the tests he/she took and if the student gets a "C" it is deemed "adequate." A student may even get an "A" and not THOROUGHLY understand the subject or course. It just proves that the student knew what to reproduce to the professor in order to get a good grade. I think one of the many good things about music is that music doesn't work like that. In order to be able to improvise with any authority, you would have to go way beyond getting an "A" in the classroom. You would have to totally digest a concept internally before it can even begin to be recalled in an improvisation. That's what I love about music and jazz. Like you said before, it certainly "weeds out" the people who can't hang. Music certainly can be a great source and vehicle for truth. A person's level of understanding can be reflected instantaneously - for some just by playing one note or even through silence.
Finding a teacher/mentor is something I plan on doing. My life is really hectic now and has been for some time, but once I get a little more settled, I will definitely establish a routine of lessons. Thanks for the list of teachers. From where I live, it's a three hour drive to get to Austin in smooth traffic. I might end up looking up some of those guys in the future.
My point about having to internalize what you learn just illustrates what I consider to be the many beauties of music that may not exist or aren't as obvious in other disciplines. Let's say someone takes an "academic" course at a university. The student will be evaluated based on the tests he/she took and if the student gets a "C" it is deemed "adequate." A student may even get an "A" and not THOROUGHLY understand the subject or course. It just proves that the student knew what to reproduce to the professor in order to get a good grade. I think one of the many good things about music is that music doesn't work like that. In order to be able to improvise with any authority, you would have to go way beyond getting an "A" in the classroom. You would have to totally digest a concept internally before it can even begin to be recalled in an improvisation. That's what I love about music and jazz. Like you said before, it certainly "weeds out" the people who can't hang. Music certainly can be a great source and vehicle for truth. A person's level of understanding can be reflected instantaneously - for some just by playing one note or even through silence.
Finding a teacher/mentor is something I plan on doing. My life is really hectic now and has been for some time, but once I get a little more settled, I will definitely establish a routine of lessons. Thanks for the list of teachers. From where I live, it's a three hour drive to get to Austin in smooth traffic. I might end up looking up some of those guys in the future.
Well - I have an A+ Computer Technician Certificate hanging on my wall. Beside it is a Microsoft Networks Certificate. Beside that is a Novell Network Administrator Certificate. And there are more. Where am I going with this?... I have never taken a computer course, or any formal studies in computers. I learned computers by (literally) tearing up a PC about 12 years ago. Then I picked up books and read. I sat in front of the computer and practiced what I read. Saved me a bundle on computer courses! Contrary to popular belief, you can teach yourself how to do stuff that you didn't know how to do.
Then again, I have come across a few people who have taken formal bass lessons, and yet couldn't play if their lives depended on it. Everyone is different.
I'm exactly on the fence on this one. The argument that there is not enough time to find a master is kind of silly because you will wind up spending far more time figuring out the nuances that could take a just few minutes with the right person. Reading texts is good. Lesson books are cool too. A mirror or a tape recorder helps, but there is nothing like a real guide if you find a good one.
I don't agree that a person cannot attain the highest level without a teacher. By definition, many pioneers had no one to show them the way. Or is it that somebody showed them the "right" way and they got it wrong and it sounded good?
An approach might be to find someone who is much better than you to show you a few things, look at your technique, and give you feedback for a few lessons, or one monster one. Work on these things for several weeks/months by yourself. Then get some more tutoring.
I really don't believe there is such thing as completely self taught. We dont live in a vacuum. Unless you washed up deserted island, you will wind up imitating what you hear and see.
Also, I think you can learn from anyone. Even non musicians or nonbassists. If someone has something they say that sounds true, I think it is worth exploring. I used to bus tables in a fancy restaurant that had a piano player named Charley. Charley would quiz me on chords, scales and modes till I could do it without thinking. I still use what he taught me every day.
jc
I don't agree that a person cannot attain the highest level without a teacher. By definition, many pioneers had no one to show them the way. Or is it that somebody showed them the "right" way and they got it wrong and it sounded good?
An approach might be to find someone who is much better than you to show you a few things, look at your technique, and give you feedback for a few lessons, or one monster one. Work on these things for several weeks/months by yourself. Then get some more tutoring.
I really don't believe there is such thing as completely self taught. We dont live in a vacuum. Unless you washed up deserted island, you will wind up imitating what you hear and see.
Also, I think you can learn from anyone. Even non musicians or nonbassists. If someone has something they say that sounds true, I think it is worth exploring. I used to bus tables in a fancy restaurant that had a piano player named Charley. Charley would quiz me on chords, scales and modes till I could do it without thinking. I still use what he taught me every day.
jc
ed fu - you're exactly right. when cats hit the wall in terms of music, they're gonna want to get into more formal and intensive study, or be satisfied with their current ability. it just happened to me, matter of fact. i got me a walking basslines book and am learning to read, and i'm sure i'll be interested in finding a teacher somewhere down the road. i think what we need to realize is, you have to let that happen. yellin at the kids isn't going to do any good if they're not convinced they need any further instruction, and even if they do grudgingly seek it out, they won't have the DRIVE and PASSION necessary to internalize what's being shown to them.
you're right, but you're gonna have to let people find that out for themselves.
you're right, but you're gonna have to let people find that out for themselves.
I agree. For example, if you know how to play a Dominant 7 Chord, someone somewhere probably had to show you the basic fingerings and explain the intervals and the basic theory of how to form a chord. You may not have paid someone for that information or gone to music school for it, but if that knowledge was demonstrated or passed on to you, then as far as I'm concerned, you were "taught" that concept.
Now as far as developing it goes, you have to do that yourself. A teacher may explain and demonstrate the physics and the mechanics involved in walking, but you have to do the actual walking yourself. That involves tripping over and over again until you develop the muscles and coordination.
I agree that no one is "completely self taught." . Just like, no one can learn a language "by themselves." Not only is language taught by communication, it is the basis of communication! I think the same goes for music.
It is the learning that we have to do completely on our own - not the teaching.
Well, I think Geddy Lee said something like this in BP magazine to young aspiring bassists:
"First woodshed and practice your ass off and then
get creative".
I agree with that. It's not good to have technique in way of creativity and vice versa.
While studying music with a teacher is great it all comes down to the amount of practice you put into it yourself. Just like Badminton, Soccer, Chess, whatever.
You wont get godly over night.
/lovebown
"First woodshed and practice your ass off and then
get creative".
I agree with that. It's not good to have technique in way of creativity and vice versa.
While studying music with a teacher is great it all comes down to the amount of practice you put into it yourself. Just like Badminton, Soccer, Chess, whatever.
You wont get godly over night.
/lovebown
I'm self taught. I have absolutely no knowledge of musical theory, reading the dots or whatever. My circumstances in life simply don't permit me to hire a teacher for, well, many reasons. Neither do they permit me much if any private practice.
I am, as a consiquece, a very average bassist. However, my skill is such that I can do what I want to do with my music.
However I FIRMLY BELIEVE that in order to improve @ the best possible rate, most people can learn much from a teacher / mentor / coach, call it what you will. I would benefit enormously: I truly believe that. I reckon that I would be, oooh, 5 to 10 times better that I am now in 1 year's time with coaching.
Tomorrow I take my son (6 years old) to percussion lessons. He needs to be taught properly and I hope that's what he'll get.
Sports people all have coaching.
What's the point of my post? Well, I guess it's a bit disjointed but I'm saying get some coaching if it's at all possible.
RJ
I am, as a consiquece, a very average bassist. However, my skill is such that I can do what I want to do with my music.
However I FIRMLY BELIEVE that in order to improve @ the best possible rate, most people can learn much from a teacher / mentor / coach, call it what you will. I would benefit enormously: I truly believe that. I reckon that I would be, oooh, 5 to 10 times better that I am now in 1 year's time with coaching.
Tomorrow I take my son (6 years old) to percussion lessons. He needs to be taught properly and I hope that's what he'll get.
Sports people all have coaching.
What's the point of my post? Well, I guess it's a bit disjointed but I'm saying get some coaching if it's at all possible.
RJ
I got lessons to teach me the physical technique and the meat and potatoes of bass playing.
But I figured out most scales, chord progressions and a lot of theory from this place:
http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/index.html
It's a great instructional site and it's free.
In a sense, John was right. Everyone picks up something by themselves, and everyone also needs something taught to them by someone else. Even though the way he phrased came off as a weird attempt at being pseudo-profound.
But I figured out most scales, chord progressions and a lot of theory from this place:
http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/index.html
It's a great instructional site and it's free.
In a sense, John was right. Everyone picks up something by themselves, and everyone also needs something taught to them by someone else. Even though the way he phrased came off as a weird attempt at being pseudo-profound.
Hello Purple.
Pseudo profound? I don't think so...just damned bad English on my part.
It would be interesting to discover just how many musicians have made it to the top without any tuition. As always, I stand to be corrected but I think the virtuoso voilinist, Stefan Grappelli (spelling?) was entirely self taught, as is the V bassist, Mark King.
Perhaps this shows self teaching is possible. And for the gifted few it really can work. But for the rest of us.....
It's also interesting that self teaching a musical instrument probably trains the ear more quickly than being coached would do. Most self taught's don't read the dots so rely solely on their musical ear to progress. And that has to be a good thing.
RJ
Pseudo profound? I don't think so...just damned bad English on my part.It would be interesting to discover just how many musicians have made it to the top without any tuition. As always, I stand to be corrected but I think the virtuoso voilinist, Stefan Grappelli (spelling?) was entirely self taught, as is the V bassist, Mark King.
Perhaps this shows self teaching is possible. And for the gifted few it really can work. But for the rest of us.....
It's also interesting that self teaching a musical instrument probably trains the ear more quickly than being coached would do. Most self taught's don't read the dots so rely solely on their musical ear to progress. And that has to be a good thing.
RJ
I'm with XG on this one (to some extent) - I'm a self-taught PC geek as well, have a few certs - and sometimes I have full blown MCSE's asking me how to fix a problem. So there's lots to be said about being self taught.
However, in the world of bass, of course Ed's right - but for me playing bass is a hobby and not a career; so I don't want to spring big bucks for lessons (at least not now, maybe a year or two I will). One thing I'm learning, though - is it does seem to be relatively easy to get into a rut on the bass.
Probably most of us who claim to be self-taught on bass (myself included) aren't really that way anyway; what with various bass-related websites (like TB), books, musician friends, watching other bassists, etc.
ok.. well... I guess I am not self-taught... I have taken countless years of music theory.... I read whatever I can about playing bass and I even go to www.activebass.com its pretty cool imo b/c there are different levels at which you can learn some tricky bass licks.. I like it.. I'm at the advanced level (from what active bass says) I haven't gone to the higher two levels.... maybe they aren't much harder than advanced... anyway...
peaceout
peaceout
