Self Taught

[Rob W]

Rob I agreed with you all up to that point. Music is art and there is no right or wrong's in art considering that it's based soley on the individual rather then a guide book.

Yeah, I'll remember that next time I'm playing Beethoven's 5th. I'll see how long I keep my job.

And I'm sorry some of us have found a way to make money AND create music.

If I have to play 'by the rules' and play a piece of music I don't like sometimes that's okay because maybe next time I'll get to play something really uneblievably awesome the next week. Honestly, playing some piece of drivel is still WAY better than flipping burgers.

 

[capnsandwich]

Are you trying to say people studying music with a teacher somehow harms your ear? If you have a good teacher your ear will improve way faster and with a broader spectrum. How exactly does having a teacher weaken your ear?

Also this 'no boundaries' thing boggles my mind. If any time a teacher would suggest any kind of limits, it's usually for the purpose of targeting a weakness in your playing. Said boundaries are usually temporary so that you will focus your attention on a certain thing until you actually understand it and master it. It's called discipline and it's not a dirty word. It helps you progress rather than just repeating the same old weaknesses.

When you're playing on a gig you can play whatever the heck you like. There you are free to play whatever you want. Practice and learning is exactly that. Performing is where you use or don't use what you've learned.

And by the way, perhaps you don't want to believe it, but often in music there actually is a 'wrong way' to do things. Unless you're lucky enough to be leader of a hugely sucessfull international musical group, you're going to have to play somebody else's music at some point. If you can't play it the way they want, they will very quickly get somebody who can.

Wow, you pretty much took what I said to a whole different place than where I meant it to go. I understand discipline, believeth thou me. I understand that there are wrong ways to do things. It's just that whenever I see teachers trying to cram a bunch of theory down kid's throats I usually see a kid give up a month or so later. Sometimes it's good to let a person grow on their own and "guide" them, not sit there and show them the "right way", all while correcting their every little mistake so that feel like an idiot after every practice.

Oh, and I have no idea where you got that I said that a teacher will somehow hurt your ear. There are commas in between every point I made. They were not meant to be mentioned in the same context.

 

[xxfaux_punkxx]

Yeah, I'll remember that next time I'm playing Beethoven's 5th. I'll see how long I keep my job.

And I'm sorry some of us have found a way to make money AND create music.

If I have to play 'by the rules' and play a piece of music I don't like sometimes that's okay because maybe next time I'll get to play something really uneblievably awesome the next week. Honestly, playing some piece of drivel is still WAY better than flipping burgers.

I like how you assume you know me simply because I disagree with you, that's all I'll say on that.

I'm not saying you can't make money and play music at the same time. I'm just saying that you shouldn't sell your soul for a few bux (think greenday, the sex pistols, good charlotte). It's an ethics thing though. If you're completly comfortable playing music you hate just to fill up your pigg bank then ball all means go right ahead.

Also there's a difference between playing music you don't like sometimes and playing music to sell it. If you hate the music you're playing but continue to do so to sell it then there's problems.

 

[Rob W]

If you hate the music you're playing but continue to do so to sell it then there's problems.

I don't know about that. Sometimes people are just trying to make a living. There's nothing wrong with that. If somebody enjoys listening to it, it can't be all that bad a thing either. If they want to pay money for it too, then, great.

We all do things we don't necessarily like just to make make money. I don't think you should bust on anybody for doing the same in music. Most people don't want to clean toilets for a living but many do just that. Are they 'selling their souls' too? Playing music you hate just to make money is preferable to doing any other job you hate IMO and while playing music you hate, I don't think you are selling your soul any more than if you were doing some other lame job [just to make money].

My point was that there are in fact 'wrong' ways to do things in some forms of music. Not every kind of music offers absolute freedom.

Even when writing and performing your own music, you can be as free as you like, but consider that listeners will have their own ideas of what is 'right' or not. In fact, you probably even have your own ideas of what's right or not. I'm sure you play things yourself that you don't think are quite right. You must have got your opinion from somewhere. Expanding musical boundaries usually starts from finding out where they are in the first place.

The more you know, the more you can expand.

 

[Rob W]

Oh, and I have no idea where you got that I said that a teacher will somehow hurt your ear.

You said that because you are self taught you have a well developed ear. That sort of implies that someone who isn't self taught won't have as good an ear.

A good teacher shouldn't make a student feel like an idiot. If they do, they're doing a bad job teaching.

 

[pacojas]

are there any dead give aways that show a musician is either self taught or formally trained. have you ever seen any band play and just knew a guitar player is classically educated (or can a S.T. guy be just as great?).

 

[xxfaux_punkxx]

I don't know about that. Sometimes people are just trying to make a living. There's nothing wrong with that. If somebody enjoys listening to it, it can't be all that bad a thing either. If they want to pay money for it too, then, great.

We all do things we don't necessarily like just to make make money. I don't think you should bust on anybody for doing the same in music. Most people don't want to clean toilets for a living but many do just that. Are they 'selling their souls' too? Playing music you hate just to make money is preferable to doing any other job you hate IMO and while playing music you hate, I don't think you are selling your soul any more than if you were doing some other lame job [just to make money].

My point was that there are in fact 'wrong' ways to do things in some forms of music. Not every kind of music offers absolute freedom.

Even when writing and performing your own music, you can be as free as you like, but consider that listeners will have their own ideas of what is 'right' or not. In fact, you probably even have your own ideas of what's right or not. I'm sure you play things yourself that you don't think are quite right. You must have got your opinion from somewhere. Expanding musical boundaries usually starts from finding out where they are in the first place.

The more you know, the more you can expand.

I have to disagree. Cleaning a toilet isn't selling your soul. I doubt it's anyone's preffered choice in a career, however there is no artistic relevance to the matter. You spray bleach wipe and you're done.

Music is an art. It's your own creation (or your own version of the creations of another depending you do covers). So to create something just to sell it is selling your soul. If you put your heart and soul into creating your music then why should you change it just because it sells? It's your creation to enjoy and share with the world. It takes a lot of time, effort, and skill to be able to create art.

Do you think Van Halen, Aero Smith, Van Gauegh, Poe, or any other artist would sacrafice their creativity in order to make a few bux? Even Greenday went against everyone's advice when the released the song "good ridance".

 

[LM Bass]

Mozart, for example. . .
: )

 

[darkblack99]

are there any dead give aways that show a musician is either self taught or formally trained. have you ever seen any band play and just knew a guitar player is classically educated (or can a S.T. guy be just as great?).

IMO in the pop/rock/jazz fields, perhaps outside of a certain indefinable finesse...No.
Technically, everybody is self-taught to a degree from the time they start plunking away at an instrument and discover a deep-seated need to continue with it.

At that point, they go until they run out of interior resources, and either crack the books themselves or seek outside help.
It takes longer for some than others, based purely on a subjective ability to self-develop.

I don't think there's a 'quality' difference between self-taught and schooled players - It's always been simply a matter of 'can you do what the gig requires?'

 

[Rob W]

I have to disagree. Cleaning a toilet isn't selling your soul. I doubt it's anyone's preffered choice in a career, however there is no artistic relevance to the matter. You spray bleach wipe and you're done.

Music is an art. It's your own creation (or your own version of the creations of another depending you do covers). So to create something just to sell it is selling your soul. If you put your heart and soul into creating your music then why should you change it just because it sells? It's your creation to enjoy and share with the world. It takes a lot of time, effort, and skill to be able to create art.

Do you think Van Halen, Aero Smith, Van Gauegh, Poe, or any other artist would sacrafice their creativity in order to make a few bux? Even Greenday went against everyone's advice when the released the song "good ridance".

Look, my point about the toilet cleaning thing, maybe it's something somebody would do to make money to finance producing the music they really would like to. Why is a musician playing music they might not like to make money any worse than cleaning a toilet for money? It's still something you don't want to do. I'd personally rather play a few dippy broadway showtunes every once in a while instead of cleaning toilets. And, yes, actually Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and a lot of other of the greatest composers of all time did plenty of things they didn't want to do (teaching lazy students, giving concerts of music they'd rather not play, etc) in order to make money to write their own music.

Playing other forms of music doesn't mean I can't play want I truly want at other times. It doesn't hurt my creativity. You say, "If you put your heart and soul into creating your music then why should you change it just because it sells?" I'm not saying you should. When you're creating your music, do whatever you like. Why shouldn't you? Create and play your music your way as much as you like. If other people dig it, even better. If it doesn't make you money then you need to find some other way to make money.

If you choose to limit your musical output to playing with only one band or group and then you alter your only creative output to suit others then perhaps that is 'selling out'. I've never undertood why people think they can only be in one musical group and that should be their only musical outlet.

 

[Rob W]

Anyway...

I'm not trying to start a riot here. I can understand why self-taught players might feel a certain pride in having done things on their own, but as with anything in life, learning from the experience of others can only make you better.

Studying music with a good teacher, and I stress GOOD teacher, should just enable a player to do even better than they would already. Learn a bunch of stuff, take what you need. If nothing else, you might find out what you don't want to do. On the flipside you will more than likely discover things you never would have dreamed of on your own.

 

[carl h.]

Read my sig.

I encounter more crappy beginners who consider themselves advanced intermediates than I care to think about. If you don't even know how much you don't know, it is easy to be over confident in your abilities. I'm happy to be able to sit down with a piece of paper and hear music that was created by an artist hundreds of years ago - we speak the same written musical language. The artist who created it can tell me hundreds of years after being buried how his music is to be recreated by musicians he never met.

 

[DeluxeRed]

are there any dead give aways that show a musician is either self taught or formally trained. have you ever seen any band play and just knew a guitar player is classically educated (or can a S.T. guy be just as great?).

You can usually see it--if not hear it--in the way they hold their hands. Players that start with a good instructor have the well positioned hands, arched fingers, all the parallels/perpendiculars just right. Self-taught players' fingers are all at angles, and usually not arched. Usually, not always. But you can usually tell by looking.

 

[xxfaux_punkxx]

Look, my point about the toilet cleaning thing, maybe it's something somebody would do to make money to finance producing the music they really would like to. Why is a musician playing music they might not like to make money any worse than cleaning a toilet for money? It's still something you don't want to do. I'd personally rather play a few dippy broadway showtunes every once in a while instead of cleaning toilets. And, yes, actually Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and a lot of other of the greatest composers of all time did plenty of things they didn't want to do (teaching lazy students, giving concerts of music they'd rather not play, etc) in order to make money to write their own music.

Playing other forms of music doesn't mean I can't play want I truly want at other times. It doesn't hurt my creativity. You say, "If you put your heart and soul into creating your music then why should you change it just because it sells?" I'm not saying you should. When you're creating your music, do whatever you like. Why shouldn't you? Create and play your music your way as much as you like. If other people dig it, even better. If it doesn't make you money then you need to find some other way to make money.

If you choose to limit your musical output to playing with only one band or group and then you alter your only creative output to suit others then perhaps that is 'selling out'. I've never undertood why people think they can only be in one musical group and that should be their only musical outlet.

Finally something a gree with

 

[davkane]

Back in the 80's 'round here we used the term "Playing by feel". Now the interesting thing about "playing by feel" was that some people could do it, and some couldn't. But even more interesting was that some self taught/some classically trained/some guitar converts to bass/some players that played with picks/some players that played with finger style/some fretless and some fretted players could be said to be "Playing by feel" while some others that fell into the same categories above couldn't. "Playing by feel" was move like being able to understand the grove (or fit into the pocket), no one cared how you "learned" to grove, but just dug the fact that you could.

I was/am a "self taught" bassist, but was "trained" on trombone for 8 years. I could read music, and bought Mel Bay bass books to learn the basic of the bass fretboard. I also spent many hours learning songs by ear. In college, I took several theory classes. They counted as electives and I was really interested in music, so why not take classes your are interested in.

I have, in my life, taken 4 official bass lessons (one after 8 years of playing, and three after 20+ years of playing). But I have taken many hundreds of non official bass lessons too; Anytime I learned a difficult lick, anytime I read music to a song, any time I used my ear to figure out songs, playing in a band writing original music, learning to sing and play at the same time were all lessons, I can not truly say I did these all by myself. Reading bass tabs are lessons too. You are learning technique from someone else's perspective. All of these shape your playing, and your style. One thing I can point to that I learned on TB was the floating thumb technique. To say I self taught my self would be wrong, yes I practiced it on my own but I was taught it by reading many posts here.

Not that anyone said this straight out, but being self taught or trained by a good teacher does not increase or decrease your artistic connection to the bass. To say that one does this better than the other would be wrong.

I will say that a teacher can help you destroy bad habits that could end up shorting your career. In the four official lessons that I took, my goal was to learn how to keep my wrists from hurting. Simple techniques that I learned help me to do this.

Sorry for the rambling