Sending "your" sound into the PA

[baxter_x]

I started bass in 1997, so almost 20 years ago. Since then I had a sound in mind that I consider I have achieved. This, after years of tweaking, choosing the right strings, the right bass, working an all the little details.... Pretty much the "standard" quest we probably all go through. But I have only one frustration now: Of to correctly send my hard worked sound into the PA.
I always feel the sound coming out of it is not up to what I expect or what I've worked hard for.
I know it's probably impossible to cop 100% with the sound you have on stage, but I'm pretty sure things could improve much more. For instance, using a DI for the main sound AND a microphone in front of the cab for all the details and mixing both.

Are you guys fine with the sound you have in the facade?
Is it possible to have the sound of the facade like you were standing in front of your rig?

I have to admit our sound guy is one of the best I've ever worked with. But despite that, I feel it doesn't totally do justice to my sound.

 

[JRA]

Is it possible to have the sound of the facade like you were standing in front of your rig?

the short answer is no.

but i think you have some advantage in getting 'close' if you work with the same FOH consistently. i also think that you can understand why i'm saying "no" if you consider what your rig looks like, and compare that image to what your PA looks like. two different 'rigs'. they look and sound different and they are used for different purposes: you are "chasing tones" to sound the way you want. the sound guy is chasing 'control' to make the whole band sound the way he wants. you want the bass to sound good to you; and he wants the band to sound good to 'them' (the audience). not the same, right?

there are other threads attending to this topic, but you don't have to read them if you take this advice: never expect a good, working, experienced FOH to care about your tone!
good luck with your chase/quest.

 

[two fingers]

I'm a sound guy too. Here's one thing our egos need to keep in check.

Your favorite tone might sound like the left hand of God on a twenty foot Steinway at home or during rehearsal. But the exact same tone might sound like garbage in a front of house mix in a bigger room with bigger speakers. Physics is a cruel master.

First off, the physics of FOH subs is much different from a bass cab.... any bass cab.

Then there's the mix. Let's say you like a scooped tone. That might sound great to your ears. But in many styles of music it just gets buried.

Then there's the physics of the room itself. Your tone could get lost in a room. I'm not joking. I have seen/heard it happen. I go to sound check the bass and keep asking the guy to turn up. I keep turning him him at the board. It's there but really subdued. Then, I ask him just for kicks to dial me up some low midst and BOOM! He's taking my head off at the same volume.

And, please, don't hand me this crap of "A GOOD sound guy can make ANY tone fit ANY mix and ANY room." That simply isn't true unless he has found a way to defy the laws of physics.

When in doubt, send something slightly brighter than your favorite tone to the board. I can boost lows all day long. But if highs and mids aren't in the signal you send me there's nothing I can do for you. Mud will win every time..

Producing a good live Sound takes the whole band and a sound guy. If you think about it, it's not even "my" tone, it's all "our" tone. I would say that to any instrument or vocalist as well.

Especially if you have a good sound guy, you play bass and let him do what he does. Live music is a team sport and we all can't play center field. He knows things you don't know. He hears your band from a perspective you can't possibly have unless you go wireless and stand by the board while the crowd is in the room affecting room physics. And doing that would be dumb. Go up on stage and send him something he can use to make you sound great to the people who are most important in this transaction....the audience.

 

[baxter_x]

Thanks a lot, both of you provided great answers. I totally get the fact that MY perspective CANT be the sound guy as we don't have the same point of view on the sound. Very interesting though.

you are "chasing tones" to sound the way you want. the sound guy is chasing 'control' to make the whole band sound the way he wants. you want the bass to sound good to you; and he wants the band to sound good to 'them' (the audience). not the same, right?

Totally!

And, please, don't hand me this crap of "A GOOD sound guy can make ANY tone fit ANY mix and ANY room." That simply isn't true unless he has found a way to defy the laws of physics.

I won't hand you this crap

Then there's the mix. Let's say you like a scooped tone. That might sound great to your ears. But in many styles of music it just gets buried.

That particular point is very interesting as it took me a several years to understand this. When I started I tough dialing a tone my amp would be the same on the PA: Wrong! And then started enjoying scooped tones as it's fat and pleasing to hear, but in a live mix it's just a hell of buried low frequencies. I finally made some compromises and got used to it, even liking it better. You live you learn.

 

[two fingers]

I won't hand you this crap

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you specifically. I have gotten a lot here when posting that point of view.

 

[baxter_x]

I got it. But to be honest, when I started I was used to thinking that was possible.

By the way, is the REDDI worth its reputation?

 

[andawun]

You might try going out front during sound check and get the sound tech to eq your bass to your liking.

 

[baxter_x]

I can't do that at every show. Also, I think my job is to play on stage and his is to make de band sound as good as he can. Everyone at his duty, it's to me the best way to make things go right.

 

[Snowglo]

As I have stated many times in different forums/posts, I now have the exact FOH tone as my stage tone by switching to a pre/power rig with a hifi "un-colored' cabinet. I will never go back to a traditional rig at this point.

I hated having a great stage tone only to walk out front (I'm always wireless) to hear something completely different. Also had many time where I couldn't get my rig to sound right on stage, but it was awesome out front.

I'm not saying that you need to toss your rig and get a preamp, poweramp, and sterile cabinet. I guess maybe accept there is going to be a difference between stage and FOH and not to fight it. IMHO, IME, yada yada, etc.

 

[Geri O]

By the way, is the REDDI worth its reputation?

Yes.

If you are looking for totally transparent, nothing added type of tone, the REDDI isn't for you. Well, you may try the REDDI and like it after all, but it's not a transparent-type DI.

If you like some warmth, some stuff, some whatever-it-is kind of DI (and the REDDI is supposed to be voiced after the Ampeg B15 amplifier), you'll love it.

There are other tube units that are great as well. I like the REDDI because it has a gain-control only, no EQ or drive. Very simple operation.

Our church has had one for 2 years, that's where I got hooked on its sound. I went a long way with a Radial JDI and a J48, but I finally got my own REDDI.

My approach to "my sound" is with my bass, my fingers, and my interface. The REDDI solidified that greatly for me. Anything past that (bass amp, PA, recorder, whatever) is nothing more than an extension of "my sound" that will either enhance or get in the way of the sound I'm trying to put forth.

 

[musicman7722]

I'm a sound guy too. Here's one thing our egos need to keep in check.

Your favorite tone might sound like the left hand of God on a twenty foot Steinway at home or during rehearsal. But the exact same tone might sound like garbage in a front of house mix in a bigger room with bigger speakers. Physics is a cruel master.

-snip

I said in another thread but every bass player should do sound for a few nights just to see how difficult it is to get the bass to sound good out front.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I have only played with PA support outdoors and really big halls where the stage has giant ceiling so no influence on the sound. Tune the PA to the room to so minimal EQ is required if you please to my sound. No my E string does not boom. Your subs are way too hot.

 

[bucephylus]

I'm a sound guy too. Here's one thing our egos need to keep in check.

Your favorite tone might sound like the left hand of God on a twenty foot Steinway at home or during rehearsal. But the exact same tone might sound like garbage in a front of house mix in a bigger room with bigger speakers. Physics is a cruel master.

First off, the physics of FOH subs is much different from a bass cab.... any bass cab.

Then there's the mix. Let's say you like a scooped tone. That might sound great to your ears. But in many styles of music it just gets buried.

Then there's the physics of the room itself. Your tone could get lost in a room. I'm not joking. I have seen/heard it happen. I go to sound check the bass and keep asking the guy to turn up. I keep turning him him at the board. It's there but really subdued. Then, I ask him just for kicks to dial me up some low midst and BOOM! He's taking my head off at the same volume.

And, please, don't hand me this crap of "A GOOD sound guy can make ANY tone fit ANY mix and ANY room." That simply isn't true unless he has found a way to defy the laws of physics.

When in doubt, send something slightly brighter than your favorite tone to the board. I can boost lows all day long. But if highs and mids aren't in the signal you send me there's nothing I can do for you. Mud will win every time..

Producing a good live Sound takes the whole band and a sound guy. If you think about it, it's not even "my" tone, it's all "our" tone. I would say that to any instrument or vocalist as well.

Especially if you have a good sound guy, you play bass and let him do what he does. Live music is a team sport and we all can't play center field. He knows things you don't know. He hears your band from a perspective you can't possibly have unless you go wireless and stand by the board while the crowd is in the room affecting room physics. And doing that would be dumb. Go up on stage and send him something he can use to make you sound great to the people who are most important in this transaction....the audience.

Great post from the sound person perspective.

As I have posted elsewhere though, there remain for me unanswered questions from the player perspective.

I generally do not use the same tonal setting all night. I use several different settings for pizz parts, a different setting for slap work, and a a couple of settings for plectrum parts. On a passive bass, I'm messing with the pickup balance, volumes, and tone knob. I may also prefer an active preamp circuit to get the most out of the passive bass with the different tonal requirements. And, yes, those tones are selected based on the needs of the song. Not my ego.

No pedal effects. I don't use any of that.

OK, sound person perspective is that they don't like the outboard preamp in the feed, because it adds potential complications. So, I cheat and use an active bass with the preamp in the instrument. I don't know if the sound person theoretically likes that or not; but, they don't have much choice. In reality, my best sound person feedback has been from this kind of active instrument. I'm not sure what the difference is in where the preamp is; perception vs reality on this one is confusing.

Then I have active instruments with preamps in them that are less than optimal; and though they are very fine instruments, they benefit from some further active preamp adjustment before any power stage. If I take those directly to the house, it may be unlikely for the sound person to get the best out of them. Ergo, MY preference for an outboard preamp.

Now, I grant that the sound person needs authority for the larger picture of the mix. I also understand that I am more focused on the bass tone than the sound person. But, shouldn't I be sending something that is closer to a correct bass tone to the board than purely relying on the sound person to make all adjustments and get it right? I mean, at some level, ALL players are adjusting tone on the instrument anyhow. Again, I'm not talking about having a huge pedal board with all kinds of signal chain factors. I'm just talking about sending a good basic tone, but having at least leeway to accommodate different playing parts.

There should be some kind of middle ground that adults can agree on while working together.

@Brad Johnson has posted elsewhere that his favorite sound people take his sound on stage and make it bigger with the mains. I think that's correct. From a team perspective, that ought to be everyone's objective. Yes?

 

[two fingers]

Great post from the sound person perspective.

As I have posted elsewhere though, there remain for me unanswered questions from the player perspective.

I generally do not use the same tonal setting all night. I use several different settings for pizz parts, a different setting for slap work, and a a couple of settings for plectrum parts. On a passive bass, I'm messing with the pickup balance, volumes, and tone knob. I may also prefer an active preamp circuit to get the most out of the passive bass with the different tonal requirements. And, yes, those tones are selected based on the needs of the song. Not my ego.

No pedal effects. I don't use any of that.

OK, sound person perspective is that they don't like the outboard preamp in the feed, because it adds potential complications. So, I cheat and use an active bass with the preamp in the instrument. I don't know if the sound person theoretically likes that or not; but, they don't have much choice. In reality, my best sound person feedback has been from this kind of active instrument. I'm not sure what the difference is in where the preamp is; perception vs reality on this one is confusing.

Then I have active instruments with preamps in them that are less than optimal; and though they are very fine instruments, they benefit from some further active preamp adjustment before any power stage. If I take those directly to the house, it may be unlikely for the sound person to get the best out of them. Ergo, MY preference for an outboard preamp.

Now, I grant that the sound person needs authority for the larger picture of the mix. I also understand that I am more focused on the bass tone than the sound person. But, shouldn't I be sending something that is closer to a correct bass tone to the board than purely relying on the sound person to make all adjustments and get it right? I mean, at some level, ALL players are adjusting tone on the instrument anyhow. Again, I'm not talking about having a huge pedal board with all kinds of signal chain factors. I'm just talking about sending a good basic tone, but having at least leeway to accommodate different playing parts.

There should be some kind of middle ground that adults can agree on while working together.

@Brad Johnson has posted elsewhere that his favorite sound people take his sound on stage and make it bigger with the mains. I think that's correct. From a team perspective, that ought to be everyone's objective. Yes?

Just for clarification, I never said I didn't want the pre from your amp. What I said was to err on the side of bright so I can do something with it. Don't assume that because the tone is pleasing to your ears on stage it will fit the mix or sound great in the room.

Imagine I am a sculptor.

A scooped or way too beefy tone is a block of steel. All I can do with it is turn it up or down.

A mid heavy or brighter tone is like a block of soft clay. I can do what I want with it. Lows can jump out if I crank them. Highs can be dialed back if they are a bit much.

Whether that block of clay or steel comes from the bass or the amp (or even mic) matters not to me.

I think most sound guys are terrible at communication. So they just see it as easier to take a signal straight from the bass because it is GENERALLY cleaner, especially on a passive bass. The more buttons switches and knobs involved the more likely a bassist is to send me more boom than I can deal with.

 

[bucephylus]

Just for clarification, I never said I didn't want the pre from your amp. What I said was to err on the side of bright so I can do something with it. Don't assume that because the tone is pleasing to your ears on stage it will fit the mix or sound great in the room.

Imagine I am a sculptor.

A scooped or way too beefy tone is a block of steel. All I can do with it is turn it up or down.

A mid heavy or brighter tone is like a block of soft clay. I can do what I want with it. Lows can jump out if I crank them. Highs can be dialed back if they are a bit much.

Whether that block of clay or steel comes from the bass or the amp (or even mic) matters not to me.

I think most sound guys are terrible at communication. So they just see it as easier to take a signal straight from the bass because it is GENERALLY cleaner, especially on a passive bass. The more buttons switches and knobs involved the more likely a bassist is to send me more boom than I can deal with.

Totally agree. Boom doesn't cut or sit.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Your favorite tone might sound like the left hand of God on a twenty foot Steinway at home or during rehearsal. But the exact same tone might sound like garbage in a front of house mix in a bigger room with bigger speakers. Physics is a cruel master.

Getting the sound of a Steinway grand represented through a PA is a good example of what you're up against trying get what's coming out of your amp on stage represented out the house. Talk to any soundman who has tried to capture the complexity and nuance of a great piano and they'll tell you it will ALWAYS be a compromise...the things always sound different depending on where you're standing. You need to resign yourself to this. It would be nice if it were as simple as sending a post EQ signal from the DI out of your amp like a lot of players think it is. The recent Soundguys won't direct out from my amp is full of examples of this misapprehension. If you can't comprehend the difference in physics between what you will hear standing close to a bass amp and what that same signal will sound like from PA speakers at 50 feet you are destined for frustration and disappointment. I can never understand the adversarial view of soundmen....they are by far your best learning resource.

A lot of your approach will depend on how you're getting "your sound" and how well you understand sound reinforcement. Mine is fairly simple with minimal EQ and few if any effects relying largely on the bass itself and my control of the tone with my hands. I do prefer the warmth and girth of a slightly pushed tube amp and a REDDI tube DI represents this in the house very well....to be honest I know that sometimes what's out in the house is probably more "my sound" than what's coming out of some amps on some stages. People obsess over the sound of their amps but for most players the DI is the fundamental link to the audience. Obsessing over how a PA works and what options are available to get a great bass sound through one is time and money well spent. Not only do I have the REDDI I've also got a Neve RNDI and a Mesa Subway preamp/DI whose sole functions are to get a good sound in the house. In the past I've also used Radial DIs and various preamps from Neve, Raven Labs, Tech21 and probably a couple I'm forgetting. The end result has turned out to be pretty simple but the road getting there has taken years.

If you're using a lot of effects especially distortion I really don't think there's any way around micing your cab. You have to be prepared for some soundmen to fight you tooth and nail on this though. I think it's essential to understand what you're actually sending to FOH be it a DI, a mic or combination and be able to explain to a soundman why you chose it and to have clear, meaningful answers to any technical concerns he might have. Bottom line is if you aren't bringing everything you need to quickly and easily get a sound out front both you and most soundman are happy with you have some work left to do. It ain't the soundman's "problem". Ultimately your sound is your problem.

 

[bucephylus]

Getting the sound of a Steinway grand represented through a PA is a good example of what you're up against trying get what's coming out of your amp on stage represented out the house. Talk to any soundman who has tried to capture the complexity and nuance of a great piano and they'll tell you it will ALWAYS be a compromise...the things always sound different depending on where you're standing. You need to resign yourself to this. It would be nice if it were as simple as sending a post EQ signal from the DI out of your amp like a lot of players think it is. The recent Soundguys won't direct out from my amp is full of examples of this misapprehension. If you can't comprehend the difference in physics between what you will hear standing close to a bass amp and what that same signal will sound like from PA speakers at 50 feet you are destined for frustration and disappointment. I can never understand the adversarial view of soundmen....they are by far your best learning resource.

A lot of your approach will depend on how you're getting "your sound" and how well you understand sound reinforcement. Mine is fairly simple with minimal EQ and few if any effects relying largely on the bass itself and my control of the tone with my hands. I do prefer the warmth and girth of a slightly pushed tube amp and a REDDI tube DI represents this in the house very well....to be honest I know that sometimes what's out in the house is probably more "my sound" than what's coming out of some amps on some stages. People obsess over the sound of their amps but for most players the DI is the fundamental link to the audience. Obsessing over how a PA works and what options are available to get a great bass sound through one is time and money well spent. Not only do I have the REDDI I've also got a Neve RNDI and a Mesa Subway preamp/DI whose sole functions are to get a good sound in the house. In the past I've also used Radial DIs and various preamps from Neve, Raven Labs, Tech21 and probably a couple I'm forgetting. The end result has turned out to be pretty simple but the road getting there has taken years.

If you're using a lot of effects especially distortion I really don't think there's any way around micing your cab. You have to be prepared for some soundmen to fight you tooth and nail on this though. I think it's essential to understand what you're actually sending to FOH be it a DI, a mic or combination and be able to explain to a soundman why you chose it and to have clear, meaningful answers to any technical concerns he might have. Bottom line is if you aren't bringing everything you need to quickly and easily get a sound out front both you and most soundman are happy with you have some work left to do. It ain't the soundman's "problem". Ultimately your sound is your problem.

Yup, I agree with most of that, all except the comparison to amplifying the Steinway; which seems to get more into the realm of general issues with amplifying an upright bass.

 

[electracoyote]

I love my stage and rehearsal volume and tone.

But when it goes out FOH at a different volume and fills an entirely different kind of space, I do no trust myself and my taste to correspond to that new space. That's what a good sound engineer is for, to take my pre-EQ signal and make it fit his space, i.e. the room.

My space is the stage. Sound tech's space is the room. I have no reason to believe or assume my EQ will be appropriate for the room.

I also don't want to send an EQ'd signal to the board just to have the tech attempt to re-EQ and compensate for the room. EQ'ing an already EQ'd signal is just asking for a problem.

However, there are always exceptions. It's rare you get this kind of attention to detail, but I've had sound techs have me switch my DI back and forth a few times and sometimes they preferred and went with my post-EQ signal. But I definitely let them make the call.

 

[HeadWind]

As I have stated many times in different forums/posts, I now have the exact FOH tone as my stage tone by switching to a pre/power rig with a hifi "un-colored' cabinet. I will never go back to a traditional rig at this point.

I hated having a great stage tone only to walk out front (I'm always wireless) to hear something completely different. Also had many time where I couldn't get my rig to sound right on stage, but it was awesome out front.

I'm not saying that you need to toss your rig and get a preamp, poweramp, and sterile cabinet. I guess maybe accept there is going to be a difference between stage and FOH and not to fight it. IMHO, IME, yada yada, etc.

I'd be interested what "hifi uncolored" cabinet you use. Is it in some of your other posts?

My band has a very good PA system with great bass support. I have a pre/power set up. So that's why I am curious.

 

[baxter_x]

Soooo interesting thread full of awesome informations especially from sound men perspective. But as I stated earlier, I' really proud of our soundman, the guy does a great job and my tone is actually pretty great with him.

I'd be interested what "hifi uncolored" cabinet you use. Is it in some of your other posts?

Same!