Sending "your" sound into the PA

[Snowglo]

I'd be interested what "hifi uncolored" cabinet you use. Is it in some of your other posts?

My band has a very good PA system with great bass support. I have a pre/power set up. So that's why I am curious.

Soooo interesting thread full of awesome informations especially from sound men perspective. But as I stated earlier, I' really proud of our soundman, the guy does a great job and my tone is actually pretty great with him.


Same!

A small, lightweight, but extremely powerful fEARful 12/6. She has preformed admirably over the past couple years for a tiny @$$ thing in a pretty dang loud rock band. She competes with 2) 6-stingers and a hard hitting drummer. In the process of acquiring a second just because!

 

[lfmn16]

This thread is a prefect example of the problem between soundmen and musicians. Without having ANY IDEA what this guy's bass sounds like, they start with the assumption that it won't work - spoken or unspoken. What a concept if they start with his sound and tweak it to make it work, rather than dismiss it out of hand.

 

[HeadWind]

A small, lightweight, but extremely powerful fEARful 12/6. She has preformed admirably over the past couple years for a tiny @$$ thing in a pretty dang loud rock band. She competes with 2) 6-stingers and a hard hitting drummer. In the process of acquiring a second just because!

Cool. And I could build that myself, which I'd like. I did search your posts and it looks like you have a crest power amp which is what I have (just got it for Christmas). In the process of updating all my vintage (well, really just old) stuff.

Here's the cabinets I have now. No, I don't use both together. This was just for fun after unwrapping my Christmas present:

NAD - Crest Power Amp to complete my rig

Would definitely like to have a lighter cab.

 

[39-Bassist]

The only way I found to get "THE SOUND" of my rig is by trying out a few microphones and finding one that picks up my tones well and then mic up my cab.
I did this by using my wireless and listening FOH for sound checks.
Now I just tell the sound guy here is my mic and stand, please use it....9/10 times NO PROBLEMS.
People have even complimented me on my bass tones too.
So I feel fortunate.

 

[trevcda]

Then there's the physics of the room itself. Your tone could get lost in a room. I'm not joking. I have seen/heard it happen. I go to sound check the bass and keep asking the guy to turn up. I keep turning him him at the board. It's there but really subdued. Then, I ask him just for kicks to dial me up some low midst and BOOM! He's taking my head off at the same volume.

Then step a few feet to your left and it's totally different. I spend much of my time on the other side of the faders myself. I like the sculpting analogy mentioned above. If you're handed a raw signal that has no mids or highs, you can't do much with it. Simply being able to add clarification to the mud will go a long way in improving the sound. I can remove a kinds of things from the signal to make it sit in a mix, but I cannot add what is not there to begin with. Funny someone mentioned "The left hand of god on a Steinway". Think of a low string on piano being plucked with a pick. That's my favorite bass sound to work with. Infinitely shapeable. But I rarely get that, especially on a throw and go multi-band show. So the best I can do is listen to what's coming out of the bass amp while I'm mic'ing the stage and try to get a combination of that and what let it sit properly in the mix. It's all compromises.

 

[DavC]

in the last band i had , ... i played keys/bass/vocals/ran PA ... as many have said , it is very hard to get the PA to sound like things do right in front of an amp ... via mic or DI

your 'holy grail' tone ... probably never ,... Good - is really all you should expect .!

 

[micguy]

I don't want foh to sound like my amp - as I don't usually use an amp, that's kinda obvious. Even if I did, the PA's in the places I play are more capable than anyone's bass amp, so if I did bring an amp, I'd still want it to sound better, not like the amp.

 

[Blackaddr]

I've switched to an a nearly all-software rig that fits in a 4U shallow depth case controlled by a MIDI foot controller. My bass goes into a nanoPOG to octave up to guitar, then the dry bass and "guitar" sound go into separate channels on my audio interface. After that it's all modeling effects, amps, cabs, mics, etc. I send my bass and stereo guitar channels as line outs straight to the mixer. This ensures that the signal you tweaked to perfection at home is the exact same signal you send to the board every night since there is no mic'd cabs.

Now, even given that, every venue will sound different and the sound guy is still gonna be making some changes at the board but at least you've taken cabinet mics and stage dynamics out of the equation and given yourself the best chance at a consistent sound.

 

[pbass2]

Yes.

If you are looking for totally transparent, nothing added type of tone, the REDDI isn't for you. Well, you may try the REDDI and like it after all, but it's not a transparent-type DI.

If you like some warmth, some stuff, some whatever-it-is kind of DI (and the REDDI is supposed to be voiced after the Ampeg B15 amplifier), you'll love it.

There are other tube units that are great as well. I like the REDDI because it has a gain-control only, no EQ or drive. Very simple operation.

Our church has had one for 2 years, that's where I got hooked on its sound. I went a long way with a Radial JDI and a J48, but I finally got my own REDDI.

My approach to "my sound" is with my bass, my fingers, and my interface. The REDDI solidified that greatly for me. Anything past that (bass amp, PA, recorder, whatever) is nothing more than an extension of "my sound" that will either enhance or get in the way of the sound I'm trying to put forth.

I have used the REDDI live, but after a while, I stopped schlepping it on the road. Indeed it sounds great, but I ended up leaving it in the studio, and ultimately getting a sound I can send to FOH that works just as well (for me) with my Xotic BB or RC Booster(depending on the music) and my Radial JDI--way more portable and beat-up-able than the REDDI. I end up playing with unknown backline pretty much 99% of the time, so this way, I am getting my sound from literally two little boxes, and all I care is that the backline amp is decent enough for the onstage mix for the band to vibe from. I like to travel light!

 

[peledog]

I've done (limited) sound mixing for shows in venues of varying size. The usual suspects for low, muddy, boom is the guitarists' amps, the kick drum and the toms. I cut all the guitarists' low mids - makes for a cleaner mix once keys and vox come into play. When the bass occupies the low mids - in my experience, it makes for an easier night. but, there's this urge for some instrumentalists to keep turning their respective amps up - rather than asking others to turn down. Easier to subtract than to add in a PA mix.

My limited US$0.02

 

[Doug Parent]

I always feel the sound coming out of it is not up to what I expect or what I've worked hard for.

As a bassist with high standards for tone and clarity I feel your pain. As a FOH engineer I want a flat uncolored bass tone to work with so the bass is heard (pitch/note definition) by the audience and they can enjoy what you do. I've had some incredible bass players through my board and the results are mixed depending on whether the bass player usually cranks his bass control on his active instrument or just uses it for taste. More often than not, the more inexperienced players are trying to get sub lows out of their 210 cab and creating a dogs breakfast in the mix.

 

[kikstand454]

And just like the other thread, what we are left is- stop your search for a unique, artist based "tone". It is 100% irrelevent to the sound man, and seemingly any performance that employs one. The only "usable " bass tone is a full spectrum, completely uncolored flat bass tone- preferably from a countryman di. All other sounds and tones cause problems. If you have another sound or tone, you will be strongly advised to forego that tone, for the one above. "For the greater good of the FOH sound".
So let's all just stop buying anything other than this set up. Forego amp heads of any make or sort.....Their tonal differences are completely irrelevent. The only way the sound guy can make you sound good....Is if your DI a "pre everything" signal, and so that is what "our" sound should all replicate! If this is the sound the audience hears, and represents your role in the band and its sound, then this is what you should send to your powered monitor.
It's actually kinda good for us.....I mean....Bad for the bass equipment industry....But...Really... Any of us that have the desire to play anything bigger than Joe's pizza shack, just needs to buy a quality DI and a powered speaker to monitor ourselves on stage. Less money!!!!



"Oh.......your guitarist???? Oh....Well, he has a 72 marshal jcm, it sounds like god. The band before ran a JC120 with a tube screamer in front of it....The guys after you have a dude with TWO 65w fender tweeds!!!
What? -- oh.....Yeah....They all share channel "guitar 1" on the board. Why do you ask????"



Perhaps I exaggerated.....But this is the way all of this nonsense sounds to me.

 

[two fingers]

This thread is a prefect example of the problem between soundmen and musicians. Without having ANY IDEA what this guy's bass sounds like, they start with the assumption that it won't work - spoken or unspoken. What a concept if they start with his sound and tweak it to make it work, rather than dismiss it out of hand.

That's a neat concept. Ironically you stepped in your own poop though.

You don't have "ANY IDEA what this guy's bass sounds like" and yet you assume it is something that I could "start with and tweak it to make it work." What's the difference?

Never mind that none of us said his bass tone wouldn't work. We simply offered up opinions as to why we as sound men struggle with your bedroom tone in a band mix at times. I also offered up suggestions as to what to send a sound guy to work with. But the whole time I said "IF" your sound is X then try York. I never made the slightest assumption as to what his tone actually is.

Some sound can't be tweaked to make them work. If you send me a boom mess cuz you thing it sounds amazing all I can do it make it a louder booms mess. I can't make it sound good at all....period. If you send me something a little bright I can do whatever I like with it to make it work.....period. End of story.

 

[Snowglo]

Cool. And I could build that myself, which I'd like. I did search your posts and it looks like you have a crest power amp which is what I have (just got it for Christmas). In the process of updating all my vintage (well, really just old) stuff.

Here's the cabinets I have now. No, I don't use both together. This was just for fun after unwrapping my Christmas present:

NAD - Crest Power Amp to complete my rig

Would definitely like to have a lighter cab.

I did see your NAD post earlier this week. If you build a fEARful, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. FWIW, there are a couple guys here on TB selling 12" driver kits for exceptional prices. No affiliation.

 

[bucephylus]

That's a neat concept. Ironically you stepped in your own poop though.

You don't have "ANY IDEA what this guy's bass sounds like" and yet you assume it is something that I could "start with and tweak it to make it work." What's the difference?

Never mind that none of us said his bass tone wouldn't work. We simply offered up opinions as to why we as sound men struggle with your bedroom tone in a band mix at times. I also offered up suggestions as to what to send a sound guy to work with. But the whole time I said "IF" your sound is X then try York. I never made the slightest assumption as to what his tone actually is.

Some sound can't be tweaked to make them work. If you send me a boom mess cuz you thing it sounds amazing all I can do it make it a louder booms mess. I can't make it sound good at all....period. If you send me something a little bright I can do whatever I like with it to make it work.....period. End of story.

@two fingers, I respect your experience; but, why do you keep referring to folks' "bedroom tone?" A lot of us have decades of gigging experience, and have developed tones crafted for live performance the hard way. I recognize you have some experience; but, so too do many of us. Please try to keep that in mind.

BTW, I've personally had 4 kids come from my bedroom; but, no basses in there for 3+ decades. That's my "bedroom tone," and I would NEVER send that to the board.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Sent my sound to the PA.....

Sound guy burst into tears!.......

 

[Gizmot]

The soundman has a tough job -he has to blend all the drums, instruments and vocals into a mix that best reflects what's happening on stage. That alone is a formidable task. Then you add in funky room acoustics and the fact that most bands / venues don't have a great PA.

All you can do is the best you can with what you have to work with.

 

[two fingers]

@two fingers, I respect your experience; but, why do you keep referring to folks' "bedroom tone." A lot of us have decades of gigging experience, and have developed tones crafted for live performance the hard way. I recognize you have some experience; but, so too do many of us. Please try to keep that in mind.

BTW, I've personally had 4 kids come from my bedroom; but, no basses in there for 3+ decades. That's my "bedroom tone," and I would NEVER send that to the board.

It is about the physics, not the concept of anyone only playing in only bedroom from the standpoint oder experience. My point is that a tone that sounds amazing in your bedroom (or bonus room, or man cave, or garage) when you are playing by yourself MIGHT not work in a live mix in a huge dry room.

My apologies. I did not mean to imply anyone lacks live performance experience. Rather the conflict between the tone of a bass soloed in a small room verses sandwiched in between 16+ other channels in a room the size of a small gym.

 

[bucephylus]

It is about the physics, not the concept of anyone only playing in only bedroom from the standpoint oder experience. My point is that a tone that sounds amazing in your bedroom (or bonus room, or man cave, or garage) when you are playing by yourself MIGHT not work in a live mix in a huge dry room.

My apologies. I did not mean to imply anyone lacks live performance experience. Rather the conflict between the tone of a bass soloed in a small room verses sandwiched in between 16+ other channels in a room the size of a small gym.

No apology necessary, and totally agree that the live stage is a completely different zone than rehearsal space.

 

[lfmn16]

That's a neat concept. Ironically you stepped in your own poop though.

You don't have "ANY IDEA what this guy's bass sounds like" and yet you assume it is something that I could "start with and tweak it to make it work." What's the difference?

Never mind that none of us said his bass tone wouldn't work. We simply offered up opinions as to why we as sound men struggle with your bedroom tone in a band mix at times. I also offered up suggestions as to what to send a sound guy to work with. But the whole time I said "IF" your sound is X then try York. I never made the slightest assumption as to what his tone actually is.

Some sound can't be tweaked to make them work. If you send me a boom mess cuz you thing it sounds amazing all I can do it make it a louder booms mess. I can't make it sound good at all....period. If you send me something a little bright I can do whatever I like with it to make it work.....period. End of story.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The only thing I stepped in is a steaming pile of soundman reasoning. I'm not sure why the hacks get so upset when someone suggests a different approach.