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Sending "your" sound into the PA

#43
I believe the PA's job is sound reinforcement, make what's present on the stage louder, so everybody in the room get's the experience. Of course there are compromises, just as in any mix, but work with the mixing engineer, especially when you have a full time person with the band. Make sure they know what you are trying to achieve and why. They may be able to educate you in why that does or does not work. At some level the PA is just a big amp, but you don't have the controls.
 
#44
Ive asked this question recently and done my own recon. I think the main reason the FOH sound is different than through your rig is bass speakers. I find that PA speakers these days are full range (frequency wise) whereas bass speakers are typically dampened and engineered to have both low and highend roll off.
A few ways I've found around this - micing a cab to FOH seems to translate my sound accurately. Drawbacks are you need a good mic with lots of headroom and very flat response. These aee usually expensive. Plus mics can get bumped easily, and most sound guys in my area look at me funny when ive as I ed to mic a bass cab!
The other thing I'm looking at doing is running some sort of cab emulation at the end of my chain that emulates the frequency roll off created by my Ashdown cabs. Broughton Audio do a highpass/lowpass filter in pedal form. DSM Noisemaker have their OmniCabSim pedal. Im really keen on trying one of these but need to sell some gear first.
Just my 2c.
 
#45
Snowglo said:
A small, lightweight, but extremely powerful fEARful 12/6. She has preformed admirably over the past couple years for a tiny @$$ thing in a pretty dang loud rock band. She competes with 2) 6-stingers and a hard hitting drummer. In the process of acquiring a second just because!
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Yes, me too...fEARful 12/6 as well....It was a challenge, and I've had to totally change my sound.
I have never sounded better through the good PA!
 
#48
Well, I've learned something this week, no doubt.

Between the crap attitudes about sound guys from you guys, as well as guitarists, keyboardists, drummers, and horn players, getting out of the business is the best move I ever made. I know I'll run into idiot soundguys here and there, but they won't wreck my day.

By the way, admins, nice job of working that "no sound guy bashing" thing. What's next, we can start discussing politics and religion?
 
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#49
fwiw, my .02 as a bar band player and not a sound guy:

"my sound" comes from my choice of instrument, strings, setup, and touch on the instrument. i send it to the foh guy with my amp's DI (it's a good one, in the mesa d-800) set to pre-eq.

he (i know there are female engineers, but i haven't worked with any) doesn't micro-manage what i play, and i don't micro-manage what he's getting in the house. works well when both are pros at what they do, and understand their respective roles in creating a quality musical experience for the audience.

if he's having a problem with what i'm sending him, i respond to his request. likewise, he responds if i'm having a problem with what i'm hearing onstage.
 
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#50
I've posted this in other places, but I have a different approach than others on how I get my tone to the foh. I have a dedicated sansamp RBI that has a touch of compression on it before it gets split and sent to foh, the other to my stage amp. I usually mic the cab as well to capture the sound I'm getting live as well.

The sansamp is set pretty flat, and I'm sending a clean signal with just a touch of dirt, like a modestly driven SVT. The pre has a blend knob, so I can actually dial in a "more direct" tone with the effected one if needed. I let the sound guy know that is set up for him, and if he needs anything, I can quickly dial it up for him. The mic on the cab is there to dial more of my sound into the mix, if it's working with the pa. I have had great results with this, and have never had a sound guy complain about what I'm giving him.

Some might scoff at the thought of having a pre amp set up for foh, but I want the best signal sent up front to sound great as a band. My sound changes based on whom I'm working with, and what genre of music I'm playing. I'm not really stuck on one sound. Crunchy and hairy for rock, fatter and fuller for country, middy and smooth for jazz. As long as the foh is getting a good signal he can work with, I'm a happy camper.
 
#52
I'm not bashing soundguys at all.

I just find it hypocritically ridiculous that the bass player does not deserve the same treatment in regards to tone as the guitarist does. Or the drummer for that matter. I don't see many sound guys forcing a drummer to play on the house electric kit (though I know they wish they could) because it's "easier" and "better for FOH sound". Where is the line 6 pod for the guitarist?!?!! Wouldn't that be easier....More adjustable.....More in control...Than a miced plexi?


No....The entire premise is that the only, usable sound expected from a bassist is the left hand of a piano.....And since "no one cares" about the bass tone anyway, soundmen seem to want to take the short cut with that instrument. It's lazy. It's pompous. It's insulting even. I do not want to go through the same DI as the band before me, and I don't want the guy after me to sound like I did either. We are three different musicians, playing in three different bands, with three different artistic ideals.

Take the line out of my amp..(or from my pedal board) ..AFTER my sound, or put a mic on my cabinet. Period. just like you did the guitarist and the drummer.
 
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#53
kikstand454 said:
I'm not bashing soundguys at all.

I just find it hypocritically ridiculous that the bass player does not deserve the same treatment in regards to tone as the guitarist does. Or the drummer for that matter. I don't see many sound guys forcing a drummer to play on the house electric kit (though I know they wish they could) because it's "easier" and "better for FOH sound". Where is the line 6 pod for the guitarist?!?!! Wouldn't that be easier....More adjustable.....More in control...Than a miced plexi?


No....The entire premise is that the only, usable sound expected from a bassist is the left hand of a piano.....And since "no one cares" about the bass tone anyway, soundmen seem to want to take the short cut with that instrument. It's lazy. It's pompous. It's insulting even. I do not want to go through the same DI as the band before me, and I don't want the guy after me to sound like I did either. We are three different musicians, playing in three different bands, with three different artistic ideals.

Take the line out of my amp..(or from my pedal board) ..AFTER my sound, or put a mic on my cabinet. Period. just like you did the guitarist and the drummer.
Click to expand...

OK, let's just say the sound guy takes the line out of your pedalboard with your sound and sounds like crap upfront and he doesn't do nothing because he would screw up your sound if he does. Who's foult is?!? Everybody will say it's the sound guy fault.

Sorry, I'd be with the sound guy on this.
 
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#54
Geri O said:
Well, I've learned something this week, no doubt.

Between the crap attitudes about sound guys from you guys, as well as guitarists, keyboardists, drummers, and horn players, getting out of the business is the best move I ever made. I know I'll run into idiot soundguys here and there, but they won't wreck my day.

By the way, admins, nice job of working that "no sound guy bashing" thing. What's next, we can start discussing politics and religion?
Click to expand...
Amplified performances definitely require collaborative teamwork. Teams require multiple perspectives. People often have a hard time reconciling diverse viewpoints. It happens in all fields of professional activity. Magic happens when the different perspectives come together to make a collective whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

The role of the sound person is critical as it produces what the audience hears. The interaction between players and sound people needs to remain constructively two way, in order to deliver the intended product.

I have appreciated your thoughtful comments. We can disagree on some points without the differences being disparaging. In fact, the differences are where the opportunities exist. Hope your day improves and look forward to future discussions here.
 
#55
Folks. Let's try to keep in mind that the objective of both sound people and players should be the same. We need to be constructively discussing the different perspectives to learn. If either person takes the "my way or the highway" position, the magic can't happen.

In my many gigs, by far, my experience has been that most pro sound folks are highly skilled and pretty easy to work with. Let's please not blow this out of proportion.

I will also add that one of my main goals as a player is to have the sound person grinning ear to ear and gushing about the bass tone. One of my main critical feedback perspectives at every gig.
 
#56
bucephylus said:
Great post from the sound person perspective.

As I have posted elsewhere though, there remain for me unanswered questions from the player perspective.

I generally do not use the same tonal setting all night. I use several different settings for pizz parts, a different setting for slap work, and a a couple of settings for plectrum parts. On a passive bass, I'm messing with the pickup balance, volumes, and tone knob. I may also prefer an active preamp circuit to get the most out of the passive bass with the different tonal requirements. And, yes, those tones are selected based on the needs of the song. Not my ego.

snip
@Brad Johnson has posted elsewhere that his favorite sound people take his sound on stage and make it bigger with the mains. I think that's correct. From a team perspective, that ought to be everyone's objective. Yes?
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Let me start out by saying none of this has anything to do with being an adult or not. It is really is hard, I would say it is the hardest instrument onstage to get out front well.

With all these changes you are making they may or may not even sound different in the FOH. I too do sound semi pro locally. If you can try to audition your sound through a PA when you aren't playing a gig. Not sure if you have access to your system or one similar. What I do is set up my system and then pump through some recorded music to try to simulate a band playing and what frequencies they take up. Now walk out in front and listen to your sound (s) with the music. I have a digital mixer so I can walk out front with my ipad and play around in real time. You will be amazed at how you sound and how hard it may be to change that sound. It is a lot of work to do this but over time you can tune your signal to FOH as well as the channel settings on the board so you do actually pop tonal wise like a guitar or other upper register instrument can.
 
#57
musicman7722 said:
Let me start out by saying none of this has anything to do with being an adult or not. It is really is hard, I would say it is the hardest instrument onstage to get out front well.

With all these changes you are making they may or may not even sound different in the FOH. I too do sound semi pro locally. If you can try to audition your sound through a PA when you aren't playing a gig. Not sure if you have access to your system or one similar. What I do is set up my system and then pump through some recorded music to try to simulate a band playing and what frequencies they take up. Now walk out in front and listen to your sound (s) with the music. I have a digital mixer so I can walk out front with my ipad and play around in real time. You will be amazed at how you sound and how hard it may be to change that sound. It is a lot of work to do this but over time you can tune your signal to FOH as well as the channel settings on the board so you do actually pop tonal wise like a guitar or other upper register instrument can.
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No great things come without effort, yes?

I find the pro sound folks generally get the bass sitting pretty well right away. But, then, they usually know their boards and speaker assemblies, and have lots of previous experience to draw upon.

The bigger challenge for me has been the "friends of the band" or band members running the board with far less experience. In such cases, there are critical discussions; such as why the bass doesn't sound so great going only through the subs. And why people don't dance when the kick drum and rhythm guitars are mixed out front of everything else. Things like that. Learning experiences. Have to keep those discussions positive and directed at the better good for the performance.
 
#58
Emanuel Apascaritei said:
OK, let's just say the sound guy takes the line out of your pedalboard with your sound and sounds like crap upfront and he doesn't do nothing because he would screw up your sound if he does. Who's foult is?!? Everybody will say it's the sound guy fault.

Sorry, I'd be with the sound guy on this.
Click to expand...
That's what feedback is for. The presumption is not that the tone is doodoo from the getgo so don't even bother with the amp tone. Why act like it is?
 
#60
Emanuel Apascaritei said:
OK, let's just say the sound guy takes the line out of your pedalboard with your sound and sounds like crap upfront and he doesn't do nothing because he would screw up your sound if he does. Who's foult is?!? Everybody will say it's the sound guy fault.

Sorry, I'd be with the sound guy on this.
Click to expand...


Shrug.

That's a cop out. What do you do when the guitarist sounds like poo??? Do you make the guitarist play through a DI/pod??
Do you make the drummer use certain symbals that you like? Sticks? Drumheads? Do you make them replace their kit for your personally pre-leveled electric kit??

I'm guessing not.

Then, like I said..... Why in the hell do any of us worry about our tone?? Tone is apparently completely irrelevant outside a small bar gig. What do you run??? Do you have a nice amp? *** for? It's irrelevant. The only good signal is dry DI.
 
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