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Serious Live sound issue.

Groovin

Groovin

May 25, 2006
776
3
Wash, D.C.
#1
Ok, I've been playing at a church every Sunday for the past year. For 11 months, the sound has been fantastic. For the past month (since our old sound guy left), I've had terrible monitor mixes and complaints from the other members of the band that the bass is either to low in the mix or distorting. Keep in mind that I'm never TOO LOUD. Just goes from low to distortion.

The FOH is a bag end system that sounds GREAT. The board is a soundcraft board and I run my Roscoe 3005 through a Radial DI or through my Summit Audio TD-100. I always run my bass volume on full to give the FOH a full signal. The band all uses Shure in-ears and I have custom molded E4's.

In discussions after this issue for a month the new soundguy (who is a friend of mine and a business partner of the old soundguy) has told other members of the band its b/c my bass is EQ'd wrong, or that I turn up for "showtime" during the service, or even b/c my strings are old. Both of these are false. I run the bass at the same volume. I run the EQ flat, occasionally cutting a bit of low mid to cut boom, and usually bump the bass control a bit.

He sent me an email today asking that we meet to work this out. Great!! I'm happy to. But his plan includes items such as

"2. Bring new bass strings we will change them at the church. (when was the last time you changed your strings?)

3. I will bring multiple DI boxes so that we can find the one that works best with your bass.

4. We will run two separate mic cables to the mixing console so we can "A/B" the console channels and DIs.

5. I will try and borrow my friends Ken Smith bass so we have something to compare your bass to.

6. I will bring an additional monitor pack so that we can compare the sound of the two packs."

At no point will he even consider that he is doing something wrong. He keeps referring to my bass as the problem. I tried to explain that Ken Smith/Roscoe are the epitome of church basses!!

Another friend thinks the prob is that the new guy runs the board too hot so that my bass is actually being compressed and limited. There are wild changes in in-ear volume which is supposed to be a symptom.

Any thoughts on the solution?
 
#2
I agree with his methodology, & I think you should too.

I suggest you reply agreeing to those steps along with one more in the similar vein; a spare soundperson. The one who had your setup sounding fine.

Perhaps add your usual brand of strings so he can purchase them himself.
 
#4
In discussions after this issue for a month the new soundguy .. has told other members of the band its b/c my bass is EQ'd wrong, or that I turn up for "showtime" during the service, or even b/c my strings are old. Both of these are false.
Click to expand...
Now he making up stuff? I would seriously consider meeting him and the leader of your church. When somebody is spreading false allegations, even for something this simple, there's something wrong with this picture. What's your motive for lying? Why were there no problems for the first 11 months that you performed? Obviously the guy doesn't know what he's doing. Seems like he may be setting you up for a replacement.
Also:

Ask him what he changed on the board regarding your bass.

Since the original sound guy is partners with the new sound guy, ask him to come along to the test? IMO, it's not really a fair test because you won't be in the mix FOH during the testing.

Maybe you can contact the previous OP and ask him to tell you how he had the bass set in the mix.
 
#5
Find the grain of truth in what everyone's saying: Maybe the lowest frequencies of your bass notes are too loud, andmaybe since everybody else has different in-ear monitors to you, these ntoes are distorting in their monitors and not yours. What's the sound guy using for monitors?

I think it's cool to try everything he's trying, and put a few of your own experiments on the list too:
- compression with fast attack/release on the bass
- narrow EQ boost at a few different trial frequencies, say 300Hz, then 800Hz
- record what's going to the monitors of people who are complaining: find the source of the distortion. If the problem can't be reproduced and located, it definitely can't be solved. Is the signal going to them clean or dirty?
 
#6
JustDavid said:
I suggest you reply agreeing to those steps along with one more in the similar vein; a spare soundperson. The one who had your setup sounding fine.
Click to expand...

That is the best part. I had the old soundguy call him and ask that very question. The new one vehemenantly does not want the old one to come. It appears they have different schools of thought on what the prob is.

Further to the point, I asked that he bypass the board EQ. At the last part of our service he showed me that my monitor mix on the board was turned all the way up but my bass still SOUNDED terrible and very quiet in the mix.
 
#7
David1234 said:
Find the grain of truth in what everyone's saying: Maybe the lowest frequencies of your bass notes are too loud, andmaybe since everybody else has different in-ear monitors to you, these ntoes are distorting in their monitors and not yours. What's the sound guy using for monitors?

I think it's cool to try everything he's trying, and put a few of your own experiments on the list too:
- compression with fast attack/release on the bass
- narrow EQ boost at a few different trial frequencies, say 300Hz, then 800Hz
- record what's going to the monitors of people who are complaining: find the source of the distortion. If the problem can't be reproduced and located, it definitely can't be solved. Is the signal going to them clean or dirty?
Click to expand...

To be clear, I get distortion too when they do too. It just goes from one extreme to the other. We all get our own monitor mixes though. (I know we're spoiled).
 
#8
If the FOH bass sound is fantastic, then look to the monitor signal path. Are you tapping the monitors pre or post gain? If post gain , then perhaps the gain needs to be backed off slightly. Is the IEM system running strictly off AUX mixes, or is it like a Aviom with variable gain structure. Look for excessive gain structure setting in the AUX settings, or the gain setting on your IEM system.

Another place to look are the headphones themselves. Unlikely they are all blown, but not impossible. What about the foams, are they all in almost new condition, is everyone getting a good seal? Sometimes, when I don't have my earpieces making a really good seal, my bass sounds weak or distorted.

I am the main sound guy at our church. If I was looking at a Roscoe plugged into a Radial, the Bassist and his rig would be the last place I would be looking. It really sounds like a gain structure problem to me.

But hey, keep us posted, if it turns out to be your strings (right) or your Roscoe (;)) let us know.

Maybe you should get a Squire Custom Precision and a Behringer DI. :bassist:

Mark

You are running fresh batteries, right?
 
#9
1954bassman said:
If the FOH bass sound is fantastic, then look to the monitor signal path. Are you tapping the monitors pre or post gain? If post gain , then perhaps the gain needs to be backed off slightly. Is the IEM system running strictly off AUX mixes, or is it like a Aviom with variable gain structure. Look for excessive gain structure setting in the AUX settings, or the gain setting on your IEM system.

Another place to look are the headphones themselves. Unlikely they are all blown, but not impossible. What about the foams, are they all in almost new condition, is everyone getting a good seal? Sometimes, when I don't have my earpieces making a really good seal, my bass sounds weak or distorted.

I am the main sound guy at our church. If I was looking at a Roscoe plugged into a Radial, the Bassist and his rig would be the last place I would be looking. It really sounds like a gain structure problem to me.

But hey, keep us posted, if it turns out to be your strings (right) or your Roscoe (;)) let us know.

Maybe you should get a Squire Custom Precision and a Behringer DI. :bassist:

Mark

You are running fresh batteries, right?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the very helpful advice!! I have to admit, I'm not a sound tech and don't understand all of that but I'll pass it along.

FYI. Most of the band uses custom molds but the drummer uses staggered rubber tips.
 
#10
JustDavid said:
I agree with his methodology, & I think you should too.

I suggest you reply agreeing to those steps along with one more in the similar vein; a spare soundperson. The one who had your setup sounding fine.

Perhaps add your usual brand of strings so he can purchase them himself.
Click to expand...
Yeah...yeah...yeah...yeah.. The soundguy's T/S methodology is a tried-'n-true "fault isolation" way of cutting straight to the chase. So I advise you go along with it...initially anyway, because you may just end up being surprised what may turn up as the 'issue'... Then you check how 'hot' your signal is being run thru the soundboard.
 
#12
Ok, so I made a mistake: The board is actually an APB - Dynasonics 24 channel board. The mixes are run through aux and are post gain. There is no seperate board for monitors. I always have used the same channel for the past year.

I'm supposed to meet this guy later this week but given his track record, I don't expect him to keep the date. I may just be staring at this problem again on Sunday.
 
#13
so basically no-one ever recorded the settings used before the new sound guy started messing about with things. Does the previous sound guy have a cheat sheet with the settings on it? Or is he one of those who believes information is power and keeps it secret so he's indispensable...

We have a card at our desk with the mixer settings recorded on them... that way, we can recover whenever someone's been messing about with things during the week when playing DVDs etc. through the PA like they do at midweek coffee mornings etc... Usually, they turn every slider and rotary they can find down instead of using the master volume like it should be or individually muting channels.

Having the card also gives us a baseline from which to make changes from... good ones get the card updated...
 
#14
Groovin said:
Ok, so I made a mistake: The board is actually an APB - Dynasonics 24 channel board. The mixes are run through aux and are post gain. There is no seperate board for monitors. I always have used the same channel for the past year.

I'm supposed to meet this guy later this week but given his track record, I don't expect him to keep the date. I may just be staring at this problem again on Sunday.
Click to expand...

With this little tidbit of added info: all monitor sends post gain

plus: "Ok, I've been playing at a church every Sunday for the past year. For 11 months, the sound has been fantastic. For the past month (since our old sound guy left), I've had terrible monitor mixes and complaints from the other members of the band that the bass is either to low in the mix or distorting. Keep in mind that I'm never TOO LOUD. Just goes from low to distortion."

Assuming this has not changed in the last month: "I run the bass at the same volume. I run the EQ flat, occasionally cutting a bit of low mid to cut boom, and usually bump the bass control a bit."

Then it's a safe bet your new sound chap is just having trouble getting the channel gain properly set. Refer to the owner's manual for proper gain setting for each channel (if you don't have the owner's manual, most are available as downloads off the company website).

Also - if he is using a ton of EQ on your bass (which he should not have to) - then check that same owner's manual to see if the AUX sends are post EQ (let's hope not). If they are (they may even be switchable on the console) then excessive EQ will play havic with your IEMs. All your AUXs really need to be pre-EQ with IEMs.

Also, on your end, watch that slight bass boost with your onboard EQ, you probably don't need that running direct with the Roscoe. :)
 
#15
The things i would check are.

Phantom Power (if your D.I ing to the channel it should be on)
PAD switch
Gain settings

It seems as if there is a low signal coming in , so the gain has to be cranked up to get a decent output, thus giving you your distorted sound.


Can't you get the last engineer you had in to give it a once over and fix what ever has gone wrong?
 
#19
So the replies so far all point to a gain issue, which is what I figured in the first place. The sound tech will not address this issue whatsoever.

My plan of action is going to be to jump through all the hoops and when we still have an issue shrug and say "now can we look at the gain set up on the board!?"

My old soundguy happens to be my roomate and has offered several times to come out to rehearsal with me and fix everything. He is confident its a 30 second fix. New soundguy put the kibash on that one...
 
#20
Groovin said:
My old soundguy happens to be my roomate and has offered several times to come out to rehearsal with me and fix everything. He is confident its a 30 second fix. New soundguy put the kibash on that one...
Click to expand...

Yep! THAT'S what Jesus would have done. Put the kibash on a plausible solution path just to be right about something.

Do you guys have a Musical Director this can be referred to? I'm sure the current soundperson is highly competent & professional in every other way, right?
 

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