Seriously..."neck dive"...???

[black_labb]

i think some makers of ERB's should put some of the tuners at the rear of the bass. (maybe 6 on the headstock, and a similar "headstock" at the butt. aside from the head up the ass, it would improve balance by adding weight at the butt and removing it from the headstock. making sure the bridge is compatible is a must, but it wouldnt be too bad.

it may be different from traditional bass looks, but you already have a 747 wing for a fretboard so thats a bit out of the question.

as for the resonance thing, i dont believe it is such a problem with laminate necks. the 4 string i made recently has a tiny headstock with smallish tuners, and there isn't a single deadspot in it. in reality laminate necks are a much better design as they create a more stable neck as well. but then again, who wants a p with a laminated neck?

 

[amimbari]

Light tuners may mess with the resonance of Fenders, but certainly not all basses. Also, remember that certain pickups like P, J, and MM pickups have such strong tonal characteristics that wood choice is almost arbitrary. It's all about the pickup and placement. That's why you'll hear many Fender users swear up n' down that ash/alder and maple/rosewood don't make strong differences in tone.

I used to believe that heavier made things sound better until I got a few sub 8lb basses that were sustain monsters, extremely resonant, and had wonderful tone. Most heavy woods aren't as resonant as you'd think. You don't see many rock maple, bubinga, wenge, etc. acoustics for a reason. Having played an acoustic guitar with a bubinga top, I can tell you it was one of the deadest things I've ever played.

thants a very good point. on all my Tbirds, there is no commonality of pickup spacing, and although my 2 J/C basses are the heaviest at around 15lbs thanks to the wood, the Dillion's pickups are spaced so far apart, it is the one that I can change the tone the most noticeably with just by moving my hand above either pickup area without having to change knob settings. ( it is light like my EPI )

 

[Oric]

ok, thanks! i wanted to get that off my chest! have fun! play, play, play!

Sounds like you want it on your chest.

 

[Joey3313]

Krist Novoselic says "screw yer bowtie style playin!"

The guy is a friggin ape. Seriously. I don't know of many other people who can touch their kneecap when standing up straight.

 

[rorykins]

hey all!
I'm glad this post got people talking! just to clear a few things up...

I never said that "bowtie" position was better, nor did i say up high was proper, i just personally believe that basses balance better in the middle-ish to high-ish range...for ME. not anyone else. that's why "proper position" was in quotes. as i said, i play low and high, with pros and cons to both positions as a lot of people have posted.

p.s. nor am i telling anyone how to play.

 

[IB3K]

Change=bad. Do not question tradition!

Well I don't play standing up much anymore as I'm usually sitting in a studio, but for many years I thought that what Ned Steinberger did by placing the straplocks on a pivot connected to the fulcrum point on the bass was the most clever and comfortable thing ever. On my Steinberger if I put the neck horizontal to the ground it would stay there, and if I pivoted the neck at a 45 to the ground it would stay there too. Maybe there's a good reason nobody ever took that idea and made it universal, but I gotta think on any bass with any shape there must be a fulcrum point somewhere on there that would yield a perfectly balanced bass when standing....no?

...oh yeah and let me just preempt , I know that there's a message on my voice mail from "the 80's" asking if they can have their bass back.

 

[SpectorBass308]

My Spector Rebop 5 had some pretty bad neck dive, there was a notable difference between it and all of my other basses. I never really realized it until I had something to compare it to.

 

[Bass Viking]

Just a crossing thought about light tuners: Altering the weight attached to the headstock also alters the resonance characeteristics of the neck (same principle as the Groove Tubes Fat Finger) and therefore changes the location or appearance of "dead notes". Removing weight will influence it most probably to the worse.

Gotta disagree with that. My Dingwall and Sadowsky have lightweight tuners and no noticeable deadspots. I played a 2008 Fender Jazz in a store and I don't recall any serious deadspots. Unfortunately, I can't go back and check as it has since been sold.

Best thing to counteract neck dive is a heavy body. I never really understood the crave for extremely light basses... IME heavier basses (generally) are better sounding and have more sustain anyways.

Again disagree. Sound quality is of course subjective but the basses I mentioned above are fairly light and sustain very well. (and I demand good sustain!)

 

[Modo74]

Owned a 2002 TBird and several warwicks, I play in the "waist high" position, or sitting down.

Never had any problem with neck dive.

 

[Fender32]

Krist Novoselic says "I wish I was Peter Hook !"

There, fixed !

 

[Bass Viking]

Light tuners may mess with the resonance of Fenders, but certainly not all basses.

+1. Luthiers wouldn't be using them if they were problematic.

 

[JimB52]

Gibson EB-2 and Fender Coronado basses were the only two basses I've played that had problematic neck dive. The current T-Birds seem pretty well balanced.

 

[Ric5]

2 of my fenderbirds had neck dive ...

this is my diy solution. Notice the extender on the straplok button.

 

[Gearhead17]

Ric5 - Nice solution to the Fenderbrid! I expect there is much less to no neck dive with that setup?

My Spector Rebop 5 also had neck diving issues and I still have not put a Thunderbird (Epiphone or Gibson) in my hands that did not suffer from neck dive. I really don't want to hold a bass a different way just to counteract neck-dive. I play my bass a little below the gut and if I can't do that with a bass, back on the shelf it goes. No matter what, I am not going to let my fretting hand slow down by holding up the bass - there goes my playing!

As for fixing it myself, I really don't want to spend the time doing that. I want the bass to be awesome right away in my hands when I stand up. No matter how you fix it, there is still a little bit of adjustment in playing style to get everything to work right playing wise. Like a previous post said, there are many choices for basses without neck dive - so shop around.

I should add that I use damn good leather straps when trying out any bass. I can't believe they still sell those nylon straps that couldn't grab your shirt even if your shirt was made of nails.

 

[amimbari]

2 of my fenderbirds had neck dive ...

this is my diy solution. Notice the extender on the straplok button.

excellent Ric5, easy, cheap, and looks cosmetically good AND works...reminds me of what Spector did to the REX when they saw it as a problem.

 

[tZer]

My Spector Rebop 5 had some pretty bad neck dive, there was a notable difference between it and all of my other basses. I never really realized it until I had something to compare it to.

+1 - My old Rebop's neck dive was such that I couldn't play it for an entire set without serious cramping and pain in my fretting hand from holding the damn thing up.

And sorry, OP - but no amount of "proper" playing position would change that. I could have worn it as a bow tie, down at my knees - it would not have mattered. The balance on that instrument was OFF and it had nothing to do with "proper" or "improper" wearing.

It's a simple matter of design. If the instrument cannot be hanged on a hook by it's strap without the headstock aggressively diving for the floor, it's not balanced and will more than likely be very uncomfortable to play - no matter how you wear it.

Now I've heard that "bigger" guys (guys with a good gut) have less of an issue - but I can't speak to that as I have no gut at all. I've also heard that a very thick, swede strap helps reduce neck-dive - but as for fixing the root cause - a bass that just is out of balance - nope.

 

[oli@bass]

Gotta disagree with that. My Dingwall and Sadowsky have lightweight tuners and no noticeable deadspots. I played a 2008 Fender Jazz in a store and I don't recall any serious deadspots. Unfortunately, I can't go back and check as it has since been sold.

Maybe you should try a Fatfinger on your basses just to get an idea of the difference a weight change on the headstock can have. Just for trying you can also use a small carpenter c-clamp. (OT content: that will give you a real neck dive )

Except for a single pre-EB Cutlass 1 which I was able to thoroughly test for an hour at a store, I haven't come across any (Fender design based, bolt on) bass that does not have at least one dead spot, basses with graphite necks included. They all have them to some extent, and mostly at the same locations (G string 5th to 9th fret). Whether they're bothering you or not is a different question. Most players don't notice them.

And for all the basses I've owned, the heavier ones were those with better sustain and often also nicer harmonics. And the added benefit of not being neck heavy at all. My guess is that lightweight basses will have good sustain when constructed with laminated woods on body and neck, or when made from really well kept old stock of wood.

If you happen to find a lightweight Fender based design with good sustain, no neck dive and no dead spots, consider yourself lucky as hell and buy it!

 

[spade2you]

If you happen to find a lightweight Fender based design with good sustain, no neck dive and no dead spots, consider yourself lucky as hell and buy it!

Ever heard of Sadowsky? There are a few guys who have 5ers that weigh under 8lbs.

 

[bassman10096]

How about a wide-shoulder guitar strap, particularly a leather one?
They sit nicely sturdy on your shoulder and don't slip. I find that neutralizes the problem.

+1 I play Alembics (known for excessive weight and neck dive) a Guild M-85 and have had a couple other heavyweights over the years. A 4" width leather strap has always neutralized the problem completely for me (at least on stage and on my feet). The added benefit is that distributing the weight does away with all (or at least 90%) of the fatigue associated with multiple, long sets + and 11lb plus instrument.

There is no reason to play a bass that is not an ergonomic match to you and your playing style. You should not have to play in an uncomfortable position to meet the "needs" of the bass. The bass needs to fit you, not the other way around.
Okay, now that I've said that, I feel better.

Me too. Come to think of it -- Who do those basses think they are?!? We gotta show them who's boss!!! (Now I feel better - LOL)

 

[P-BASSLOVER]

Play in the position that's comfortable for you!
I personally like to play high slung so I can rest my arm on the bass. Im a pretty big guy however and it just happens to work for me.