Setting the Bar too High?

[baddarryl]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

 

[bholder]

Stretching yourself is good, but yeah, stretching too far isn't constructive. Give something a try just to rate whether you can get there with reasonable effort and time or not, and if not, don't sweat it, just move on to another tune.

 

[JonathanPDX]

Get lessons. A good teacher will help you identify the gaps in your ability so you can learn the songs you want to learn. Walking, fast tunes, complex lines, there's no magic fairy dust that those players have and you don't. They just put the work in. You might have technical limitations slowing you down, bad habits, gaps in theory, etc. Shore those up with a teacher and you'll find so many more songs are accessible, it's about what you want to learn, not what you have the ability to learn.

 

[baddarryl]

Thanks guys. Since posting this I got in a groove. Played some Sublime and then figured out by ear whatever the Spotify algorithm threw at me. Good fun!

Then I went through a list someone sent me and have worked on Free Ride as Funk 49. Good stuff for my level.

 

[juggahnaught]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

Hey, man. I know where you're coming from.

The interesting thing about acquiring a skillset - especially in music - is that the better you get, the more you realize what you lack. (I think Ira Glass calls this The Gap.) It can be a hard thing to deal with, because there are a ton of people out there who are not just good but REALLY good, like Thundercat and Esperanza Spalding. There are some, like Gabriel Severn (look him up on Youtube) who are really good and also very young. It can be inspiring but it can also be a bit debilitating to know how far away you are from what you could be.

I think that the important thing, though, isn't so much the destination but the journey to get there. One thing that was eye-opening to me was watching a Youtube video of Adam Neely doing a four-hour practice session, live; I watched it and I realized that even though he's good, and better than I am, that when we practice we make a lot of the same mistakes and react to it in the same way. It's kind of nice to realize that the people who are better than us are going through the same things we are and sometimes dealing with the same mindset of wanting to do more and not quite being there.

I think the ideal is to try to stretch yourself as far as you can, but instead of focusing on the outcome, focus on the process. Practicing, improving little by little (even if it's very very little). Like you, there's a lot of stuff that I can play, but there's a lot of stuff that's out of my league. (I can play a lot of Steve Harris basslines - that's what got me started on bass, in fact - but YYZ, nope. And I'm abysmal at slapping, so even basic slap lines are out for me. And don't even get me started on some of the gospel bassists you see out there, like Sharay Reed, who make me consider choosing a different instrument. ) So although these days I don't really focus on playing well-known songs, I am always trying to do something new with my looper pedals or pushing my musicianship in some way shape or form. (That said, I really should practice and drill more.)

I dunno. I guess I'm basically saying, just be the best that you can be, and keep playing and striving to improve even if it's just a little bit. There are always, always people better than we are. That can be hard to deal with, but it can also be a source of inspiration.

I dunno, this probably isn't helping. I get where you're coming from, though. Just know that you aren't alone in this.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I had a teacher once who told me that "at first, jazz is the lonliest road". In a way he was right, but it can be a good thing and also very rewarding. I studied, I spent thousands of hours in the shed, and now I am a half way decent jazzer. I'm kind of an isolationist, so it worked out for me pretty well. A recent success for me was getting my first 5 string and 2 weeks after having it playing Giant Steps at the open mic. It certainly can be done, just takes time and practice. I wish you the best. Play on!!

 

[baddarryl]

Hey, man. I know where you're coming from.

The interesting thing about acquiring a skillset - especially in music - is that the better you get, the more you realize what you lack. (I think Ira Glass calls this The Gap.) It can be a hard thing to deal with, because there are a ton of people out there who are not just good but REALLY good, like Thundercat and Esperanza Spalding. There are some, like Gabriel Severn (look him up on Youtube) who are really good and also very young. It can be inspiring but it can also be a bit debilitating to know how far away you are from what you could be.

I think that the important thing, though, isn't so much the destination but the journey to get there. One thing that was eye-opening to me was watching a Youtube video of Adam Neely doing a four-hour practice session, live; I watched it and I realized that even though he's good, and better than I am, that when we practice we make a lot of the same mistakes and react to it in the same way. It's kind of nice to realize that the people who are better than us are going through the same things we are and sometimes dealing with the same mindset of wanting to do more and not quite being there.

I think the ideal is to try to stretch yourself as far as you can, but instead of focusing on the outcome, focus on the process. Practicing, improving little by little (even if it's very very little). Like you, there's a lot of stuff that I can play, but there's a lot of stuff that's out of my league. (I can play a lot of Steve Harris basslines - that's what got me started on bass, in fact - but YYZ, nope. And I'm abysmal at slapping, so even basic slap lines are out for me. And don't even get me started on some of the gospel bassists you see out there, like Sharay Reed, who make me consider choosing a different instrument. ) So although these days I don't really focus on playing well-known songs, I am always trying to do something new with my looper pedals or pushing my musicianship in some way shape or form. (That said, I really should practice and drill more.)

I dunno. I guess I'm basically saying, just be the best that you can be, and keep playing and striving to improve even if it's just a little bit. There are always, always people better than we are. That can be hard to deal with, but it can also be a source of inspiration.

I dunno, this probably isn't helping. I get where you're coming from, though. Just know that you aren't alone in this.

Most helpful and uplifting. Thank you.

 

[hrodbert696]

I'm probably in the same ballpark as you - 51, been playing about 12 or 13 years, lots of imploding bands in that time though now I have some stable people to play with and weekend warrior gigs come fairly regularly. I've chipped away at YYZ but can't quite do it yet.

I guess two thoughts. One is what are you playing FOR? For me, I never wanted to be the guy who told a band we couldn't do a song because I couldn't play it. It's good to push yourself and keep improving. But I have a drummer who's always wanting to play "What Is Hip." I look at that part and the sheet music is three pages of sixteenth notes. I tell him that if he really thinks it will go over I'll get working on it, but first I want everyone to agree that yes, THAT's the song that we need to play that will go over in a way that's worth doing it. It's not something you just throw together like a Tom Petty song. But what I'm getting at is that, for me, I'm not playing for the technical challenge or the pride of being the best bassist ever. What I'm playing for is to enjoy the music and to share the fun of it with an audience - I like to entertain. Impressing people with my chops isn't that much of a priority for me.

The other thought is that music shouldn't be a competition. Music, in itself, is a wonderful thing to have in the world and the more people make a little bit of it, the better. It's not about being "the best" or hitting some bar of being "good enough," it's about setting all that BS aside and just putting out into the world whatever bit of joy you have to offer. If it's just a little bit, OK, share your little bit. If it's a mind-boggling depth of musical genius, great, share your genius. It's all making the world a little more joyful.

 

[Groove Doctor]

How much do you want to be a better player??

How much time do you have realistically to develop those skills?

Are you willing to get a great teacher to help push you to new levels?

Do you record yourself playing bass, listen back to it, and work on fixing/refine your playing?

 

[BassFalcon]

Set your bar impossibly high, only perfection is acceptable, that’s my goal. I’ll never achieve it but I never stop trying. A drop in the bucket every day will eventually fill the bucket, consistency is the key. It sounds like you lack direction and are overwhelmed by the possibilities. That’s fine, happens to all of us. The big picture can be too big sometimes. Either find a good local teacher that can set you up with a legitimate course of study to help achieve your goals, not the type where you show up weekly and work on a new cover song, your doing that by yourself. Your other options are to find someone like that doing video lessons, or the cheapest option; there are numerous very high quality method books. Pick one you like and do it. Best of luck, don’t give up, and remember every drop in the bucket counts.

 

[CallMeAl]

As for learning really tough tunes: slow it down. Way down. So you can play it no mistakes. Keep at it and bump it up 5 bpm a week or so. It won’t feel much faster cause you do it gradually! Also, a teacher is a fantastic idea.

As for bands: If your goal is cover bands, build your repertoire. If the audition is between the guy who can nail YYZ, or the guy who can play 100 common bar band songs, who do you think they’ll pick? Also hang out at bars/venues. Get friendly with the owners. Have a line on some possibilities when you do land the band. Go to jams and open mics, start networking!

 

[lowendrachel]

At least you can play by ear. I don't have that yet. Still working on it. Good luck! Keep playing. You'll get better.

 

[Hyball27]

Be yourself. Every improvement is a win and progress. Push as hard as you are comfortable but comparing yourself to others will not help. All of our paths are different and that’s what is great. Enjoy your journey!

 

[JW56789]

The same process you use to simply hear and play something relatively simple without much work, is the same way you approach more complex tunes. Your ears still work the same way, the trick is to now catch harder or stranger sounding changes in chords and or rhythm.

When I walk into one that's going too fast or dense or just strange-sounding with a bunch of chords or inversions I never heard before for me to catch it on the fly, I begin to make charts. First several playbacks, I'm just looking for the overall shape of the tune and the chord changes I can catch. Then as it goes on, I'll concentrate on the 'what was THAT' bits, and after a while, it's all on the page in front of me, and mostly in my head by now as well. Then you clean up the tricky bits, done.

Whether it's 'Mustang Sally', 'Aja', or 'Stella by Starlight' and 'My Funny Valentine', it's the same process. Working out the stuff I DON'T pick right up or sounds confusing . . . . is where I learn. It takes as long as it takes, but the more you do it, the quicker you'll become at it. How long it takes is only important in that it's RIGHT when you finish, this is a 'Non-Timed Event'.

For me, there is nothing better than afterwards just sailing through a tune perfectly that I thought yesterday there was no way in hell I'd EVER figure out 'that one'.

 

[40Hz]

One thing I’ve learned about bass is that, unless you’re a musical prodigy - or you have unlimited time at your disposal - to play bass well you need to learn to play the long game called: steady incremental improvement.

Good book on that subject is George Leonard’s classic: Mastery: The Keys to Success and Long-Term Fulfillment. Ignore the hokey New Age self-help title. This book is solid gold.



If you prefer a more nuts & bolts approach with step by step directions, check this book out instead or in addition:



You can get both on Amazon.

 

[JimmyM]

I had a teacher once who told me that "at first, jazz is the lonliest road". In a way he was right, but it can be a good thing and also very rewarding. I studied, I spent thousands of hours in the shed, and now I am a half way decent jazzer. I'm kind of an isolationist, so it worked out for me pretty well. A recent success for me was getting my first 5 string and 2 weeks after having it playing Giant Steps at the open mic. It certainly can be done, just takes time and practice. I wish you the best. Play on!!

That’s pretty impressive. Giant steps sounds a lot easier when you listen to it than when you play it.

 

[DaveParker39]

When I landed the gig in the band I'm in now, the singer asked me if I played bass (she had known me as a guitarist) and I said yes, even though I was a guitarist first and a bassist second.
After learning the first 5 songs (which were challenging) I got 5 more, then got the gig. As I started to learn more of their songs with weekly deadlines, I got better at both playing the bass and learning new songs.
So just keep doing what you do.

 

[2F/2F]

It sounds like you have only ever approached music as "learning songs," and are poisoned by ideas such a "play[ing] songs properly" and "cheat[ing]." Doing what you're doing is like copying text in a foreign language, and worrying about making each letter look perfect...without actually knowing that foreign language. All you're doing is fulfilling a very specific, and very shallow, purpose. You're not actually understanding the meat and potatoes of what you are dealing in.

I have come across people like this many times over the years, and to be brutally honest, I absolutely hate playing with them. It's a complete and total drag. I can get something rewarding out of playing with a punk kid who knows two chords, but at least takes command of his instrument. But it's entirely unrewarding to play with someone who "knows songs," and nothing else. They aren't making a single musical decision; they're just going through the motions. The latter person isn't really a musician to me; they're just a guy with an instrument...and what can anybody serious do with that? Nothing.

Point being: Stop wasting your time learning songs, and instead become a musician. Learn music. Learn to have an ear. Learn your instrument. You need to have a golden ear, and improvise seamlessly, not have your entire bag of offerings limited to certain songs that you have copied perfectly. Then you can walk into almost any situation, with almost any group of musicians, playing almost any type of music, and have some idea what you're doing, no matter what the situation is...and you'll find that people think you're good and want to play with you, regardless of "how many songs you know," and how "perfectly" you have mocked them. Being able to hear what's going on, and play something that generally nails the right mood for the piece, and is harmonious and rhythmically sound, is what's important. In most real-world situations, THAT is truly playing "properly" – not what you're describing.

You don't have to "be good" to be valuable to other musicians and their projects. But you do have to "be a real musician." You need musical instinct, ear, and the ability to fabricate something from your mind that makes sense for the application at hand. Quit focusing on perfectly mocking specific things off of records, and start learning the absolute basics of music theory and ear training. Start jamming with strangers playing originals, and see what you pick up. Play along with records, playing what you want to play, to train your ear and your ability to imagine and realize your own parts. You need to stretch out and experiment to find your own way to becoming a real musician. You can't just sit there "learning songs," and expect to be invited into other people's projects readily.

 

[MDBass]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

If you aim for a mediocre goal and fail, you usually get nothing.

If you aim for an extraordinary goal and fail, often times you still get something pretty exceptional.

 

[Avezzano]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

Just insist. Eventually you will improve a lot, even if you day by day don't realise it. And just remember that in music anyone is entitled to speak his way. Two good notes have the exact same dignity of a flashy Wooten solo!