Setting the Bar too High?

[chris_b]

Walk before you can run. Start with simple stuff and get it right before you move on. Build good foundations.

Always recognise when you aren't getting it right, but don't beat yourself up too much. Praise yourself when you do get it right. Getting it right doesn't mean you have to be note perfect. IMO timing and feel are more important than playing every note exactly as the original.

IMO lessons with a good player should turbo charge your learning process.

 

[Bill Murray]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

You can play anything if you slow it down enough. The key is is to digest something like YYZ measure by measure, that turns into working on it phrase by phrase, and eventually section by section, then you’re playing the entire song.

Try learning the first bar and playing it at half speed.

 

[two fingers]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

The bar should be set at the height of joy. Yes, that sounds kinda woo. I get it.

What I mean is this. If learning some of your favorite rock songs brings you joy, keep doing that. If playing in a band brings you joy, figure out a way to do that. If taking a solid year to hammer down on one song you never thought you would be able to play brings you joy, do that.

If my hunch is correct (and it might not be) you would like to play some of your favorite songs in a band. If that's the case, go to open mic nights and network. Meet some like-minded new friends and start a band. Are there logistical challenges to starting a band? You bet. But the end product is well worth it. It took me almost 18 months to get my band in place as it stands now. But they have become an extension of my family. We mesh like crazy both personally and musically. We had to figure out a place to rehearse, a PA, booking gigs and all of that. But we did it and the band brings me joy. Goal accomplished.

But, again, try to focus on what aspect of playing bass brings you joy and then stick to that. Arbitrary goals will frustrate you even if you accomplish them.

 

[lfmn16]

If you want to get good, find a good teacher and practice. Online lessons and books don’t provide feedback, which is crucial. If you want to do it, you’ll find the time.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

Only compare yourself to yourself. You work full time and I’m assuming your practice/rehearsal time is limited, as I know from my own experience, so you don’t have the opportunity to devote 100% to your bass craft. People like Tal Wilkenfeld are the exception. I mean she left Australia for L.A. when she was 16 to study bass!!!! How many of us have the means or cahonnies (sic?) to do that!!!!!??????
You have gig experience and you are invited back so please don’t call yourself a “hack”. You are better than what you think.
I agree with the previous recommendations to get a teacher. They can evaluate you objectively and create a plan for you to address what needs improvement and keep your strengths strong……(if they are a good teacher!!!!)
One thing, you mentioned jazz walking bass lines……I recommend getting Ed Friedland’s book if you want to develop a strong “base” for walking “bass”! Plus, I firmly believe that what you learn from playing solid walking lines transfers to other music genres as well.
Have faith in yourself! Don’t stress about “setting the bar to high”, just find out your strengths and weaknesses (I’m a retired teacher and I’m supposed to say “opportunities”, not “weaknesses”!) from a teacher and practice to keep your strengths strong and improve your “opportunities”!
Good skills to you!!

 

[wysiwyg248]

Congratulations and keep practicing, please keep in mind that everyone is different and learning to play an instrument is a bit like learning to know yourself. Not every piece of advise will fit you, but they are all worth reading and seeing if they fit. For me, I recall writing goals worked great, like writing a list of songs I wanted to master, etc. that drove me into wanting to learn to read music, etc. and a good teacher can help a ton. I'd recommend looking for a recommended one and if you can check him/her out before taking lessons, even better.

 

[MrClassicMetal]

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

For this you can you can dive into Jeff Berlin's 2 latest books. One is for learning to read music, and the other one for walking bass lines. The 1st one is for beginners, and the second for those who have finished the 1st book.

 

[el murdoque]

Unless you're looking for a prog band a Rush tribute, no one will judge you by your (in)ability to play YYZ.
Both the drummer and the bassist are mostly judged by their ability to lay down a groove.

Most bands would rather take in someone on a Squier P bass who pumps out steady roots all day than someone who brings a 6 string Fodera and presses a brilliant and super technical fill into every gap there is.

However, the best way to progress is setting reasonable goals.
1. How fast do you want to get "there"?
2. How much time can you spend in the shed?
3. How badly do you feel the need to get "there"?

Those questions can more or less tell you where "there" is.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

Ha!

Sign up for Scott's bass lessons. You'll dig it, and it can really help you on those few things, as well as build your confidence, and toolbox.

If you want to play, go play. Hit up a local jam night, or open mic, and go play. Craigslist is a great place to find musicians too. Just search, bass player wanted.

 

[JRA]

how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure?

if "setting the bar too high" means you want all the skills 'right now' = your thinking is holding you back from success(es)!

you'll have to dedicate some part of your self/time/energies to the process (work ethic?) and there is no "overnight success" --- but there are "epiphanies" waiting for you at every turn if you put in the work!

with all of the great suggestions in this thread, i'm thinking that it's probably not that important where or how you begin, but that you begin.

and in your case: you may need to get out of your comfort zone. do something 'radical': get a few lessons with the best teacher you can find and tell the teacher exactly what you stated in your OP.

never give up! good luck!

 

[Gustopher]

I am a similar player, so lately I have been working on ear training with songs from genres that I am not familiar with, just to get my ear sharp. There is almost no way to get better speed and dexterity without focused practice, you have to go about it with purpose and start slow working up bit by bit. I am seeing improvements this way.
I also second everyone who has said a teacher helps, I used SBL because I could really dive into the lessons and there are no in person instructors in my area that do anything beyond the beginner phase.

 

[groooooove]

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

When studying to become a teacher in college, one of the most valuable things I learned about was Lev Vygotsky's theory called "the zone of proximal development."

He studied and documented how learning happens effectively. The conclusion is - too hard of a challenge yields little result, the same way too little does. How do we maximize progress?

parents of young children do this instinctually. They naturally (without realizing!) will speak to a young child just one step above their current vocabulary. This aids their development, one day at a time.

Long way of saying: you need appropriate challenges. Do stuff that you can make progress on within 30-60 minutes.

If your goal was "hysteria" by muse, and you just started trying to learn it one note at a time today, i doubt you'd ever really be playing it. BUT- if you start with some other easy tunes, a few stones songs, maybe some motown, scales, arpeggios, perhaps even some dexterity/finger warm ups (scales in 3rds, etc)... after a certain length of time "hysteria" will be a reasonable next song to do.

Don't get overwhelmed. I've played some pretty difficult stuff in my day - and I still have vivid memories when my teacher was teaching me "love me do" that it took a week of work to get it down. one step at a time!!

 

[Runlikegregg]

I've been playing bass forever (for me) but rarely learned covers until pretty recently.
Anyway, my current program is to learn some fun covers (usually stuff that sounds sort of hard but ends up being pretty easy) but then having a song or two that are long term projects like Frank Zappa tunes and maybe some medium term stuff like NoMeansNo.
Sometimes I lose patience with the longer term stuff - especially if I get most of it but one or 2 parts confound me.
But since none of it matters I don't really worry too much about it either way.
Also, sometimes I cheat and look for Youtube bass cover videos if I'm really stumped.

 

[TheReceder]

Your goal should be just out of reach, but not out of sight.

 

[brianrost]

I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

The focus is a problem because you are not gigging. Once you have gigs, you work on that repertoire first and work on general learning and growth second.

Learning jazz, even if you will never be a real jazz player is useful because it teaches you alot about chords and harmony that can be applied to other genres. It also improves your ears and ability to play something after just hearing it once or twice. Rather than just jumping in with books or videos, taking lessons is the best way to start with jazz.

Working on songs that you can't play easily is a good approach. Take the song apart, play sections of it as slowly as needed. If you can read music, write it down as you learn the parts. I find reading the part on paper helps me see the logic behind it, that can be applied to other songs in the future. Using a metronome only as a measuring device, start playing the song(s) until you can play it perfectly at as slow a tempo as needed, then ratchet up the tempo. Over time you should be able to play it at tempo. If it takes weeks or months, just keep at it. Even if you can never play it as fast as Geddy you'll still get a lot out of learning the song.

If you hit technical issues, such as problems with string crossings, problems with muting, etc. you can take lessons focusing strictly on that problem as needed. I've done this more than once, studying with a teacher for a couple of months at a time. I approached it by playing the teacher some songs I was having trouble with on gigs, letting them assess what the issue was and then working on it.

Hope this helps and good luck finding a gig!

 

[overit]

Everyone brings something unique to the table, whether they are new or experienced. In a band setting, this is pretty important. I'd rather play with the team player that is good than the awesome shredder that is an ego maniac. It sounds like your focus is playing covers with people in a rock band, not woodshedding to be able to improvise in other settings or personal achievement. If that's the case, and you have limited time, narrow down your focus to the songs/genre you realistically want to play with people. Save YYZ for when you built up speed and confidence - you're more likely to get hired being able to play 10 popular classic rock songs than being able to play that 1 song. As far as technique and speed, there are tons of exercises you can incorporate to build that up while learning tunes.

Typically, I'd vote for learning music and theory but if you don't have the love for it and don't have the time - that IMHO would be setting the bar too high and lead to frustration and just not having fun playing the bass.

 

[gtmalone]

Some good advice above. If you have the opportunity in playing with other folks, find ones that are just a little better than you (in your opinion). I found that's just about right to push me to get better but not feel overwhelmed.

For practicing on your own, don't spend a lot of time on stuff you already know except to keep it in memory (unless it's really fun to play!). Choose stuff you don't know but that's within your reach. The stuff that seems impossible now will become the stuff that's within your reach. It's the journey not the destination.

 

[DirtDog]

Hi all. I am just a hack player. I am 54 and never really played other than noodling until about 13 years ago. I played mostly in church for a few years then walked away for personal reasons and sold all my stuff. About 5 years went by and I walked into a bass store and have been back since about mid 2018. I have been in 3 cover bands, and one original. Have maybe gigged 5 times (the bands always seem to implode). I have the ability to learn most non Rush or Yes songs in rock fairly quickly. Simple stuff I can play by ear usually, more intricate takes some work. I like to play songs properly and don't like to cheat.

For example it probably took me a week to get That Smell down properly, a couple of days for Young Lust ect. 4 or 5 sessions to get the feel for Sweet Emotion right etc etc. It seems that if I put my mind to it I can learn most things, but I don't have the finger speed of Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Never will. Who does right?

I am in between bands now so I am in song learning land and working on stuff that I like. I just gave YYZ a shot and am light years away from that. Other songs I think I may like to try and may be able to pull off are Hysteria by Muse, Master of Puppets and Pictures of Home. Those I can muster with effort I think. YYZ? Ouch. In the meantime I do spend time learning easier classic rock songs to increase my library. I can learn 10 of those for every Master of Puppets. How do you balance this?

I guess my question is how high to you set the bar without setting yourself up for failure? I already lack confidence for not playing for so many years, but I when I play with people I am usually invited back, but we are not doing Dream Theater!

I want to play out, and I put out feelers, but nothing is happening. There is a decent music scene here, but I wonder if I am kidding myself and really just suck. I see players every day that are better than me. Then again I work full time so how much can I expect since really haven't been playing as long as it feels like?

I also love Jazz and guys that can Walk amaze me. I really don't know where to focus. AAAAAAAGH!

I totally identify. Same age although I’ve played pretty continuously since early 90s after a few years on non-playing post high school. Pretty similar technical skill. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your approach for the rock stuff. They said, you will progress much faster in a band context. A regularly gigging band, even faster.

for the jazz stuff, yes, take lessons. Learn chord theory. Learn how to read jazz charts. I advanced quite a bit after six months of dedicated jazz lessons and joining a weekly instructor-led novice jazz jam group at a local music school. I was the second bass player in the group, so it was more watch and emulate than lead. When the main guy was absent it was all on me. Great growth experience that helped me on other instruments (guitar, pedal steel).

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Having played with lots of subs over the years, I find the most impressive skill players can have is to be able to pick up chord progressions after a verse and a chorus or ,better yet, be able to anticipate where the chords are going based off the melody.

If you are a reliable 'fall in' kind of player, people will seek you out. So my suggestion would be to turn on a radio station and just play along to as many random songs as you can.

Learning note for note has academic value but maybe not as much real world value.

 

[Avezzano]

It is important (VERY IMPORTANT!) to play with someone other, possibly better and more advanced than you (as gtmalone stated above). But to gain confidence, even MORE important it is to play (possibly a bit everyday) along the records: when you feel that something is wrong, it's sure it is you! And so you will correct your bad habits. Start with simple songs that you know well as your pockets. Note, this attitude will make you improving (rather quick) about a few fundamental things:

1) you must learn to LISTEN to what is going on in the air (musically speaking) while you play, so to enable you playing WITH the band, within the flow, not going on your route alone and maybe "random", out from the right tracks

2) you'll see that you will acquire a stable time keeping (fundamental thing, for a bass player)

3) the music is like a train that will not wait for you. I mean: it will flow no matter what. So, if you missed a small or a big part of the tune, just keep going with what is going on NOW!

4) 95% of times, fewer notes is better. Don't feel frustrated and just place only the good, needed notes.