Shims: The lazy mans fix??

[mongo2]

This thread is just full of false terrible information

And information that actually works.

 

[JimmyM]

3 of my basses have shims in them, a piece of thin pickguard material, a wood strip, and a torn matchbook. One was installed by my tech. None are full pocket. Differences in tone that I could identify: none. Did I maybe lose a few milliseconds of sustain? Probably. Big deal. How much sustain do you really need? I mean, if it makes some of you folks feel good to go nuts with your shims, then go nuts. Me, I find sustain greatly overrated, and I sincerely doubt that any of you could tell any of my basses had shims if you listened to them.

 

[SquierJazz72]

One quick questions on shims though...does it really have to be in the exact shape of the neck pocket? Every shim I've seen has been a small strip of (insert material here) placed at the base of the neck.

Probably depends a lot on your actual goal. Some shims are put in to change the neck angle, so you really only want it at one end or the other. Or you shape a full size shim with an angle worked into it. It's probably been done both ways.

My goal was to raise the entire neck, rather than adjust tilt, so I used full size shims with a uniform thickness to do so.

I think I actually gained some tone and sustain, due to getting a much better break angle. The angles were almost non-existent before the shimming.

 

[Turnaround]

Rolls Royce used to make their car engines without any gaskets. They lapped the mating surfaces so precisely that gaskets were unnecessary. Really excellent technical production feat, but at great price. Functionally any better than your average high-end car with a gasket? Probably not. But you weren't paying Rolls Royce to be practical.

Leo was a practical guy with an eye to make really functional instruments at as low a cost as possible. Shims fit into that picture the same way gaskets fit into automobile manufacture. Can you make a better batch of basses none of which will ever need a shim? Yes - at a cost. But don't then go asking why high-end basses cost so much more than an inexpensive Squier.

It's pretty clear from the responses in this thread that the disadvantages of a shim are more a matter of opinion than one of fact. But even if there was proven fact on one side of the argument, the cost/practicality part of the equation can't be ignored.

 

[David Jayne]

Rolls Royce used to make their car engines without any gaskets. They lapped the mating surfaces so precisely that gaskets were unnecessary.

True, but they did it for reliability. Can't blow a gasket that isn't there.

 

[Turnaround]

Reliable or not, it was an expensive operation. So is it a question of value? Is a shimless bass more reliable than one with a shim? More practical? I'm not sure that these points have seen enough debate. The rest has been debated and the conclusion seems to be that we ( as a group) can't agree.

 

[David Jayne]

Is a shimless bass more reliable than one with a shim? More practical?

No and no. Rolls did what they did in the pursuit of perfection, cost be damned. This appeals to many, including myself. But I can't afford it.
You can buy basses made with that philosophy in mind, but they won't have a Fender logo on the headstock, and they'll cost ya. If it's worth it to you, great!

 

[Blue_Whistle88]

I fail to see how a shim is a "lazy" way out anyway. If it works (which it does when the right part is installed properly), and there's no noticeable tonal effect (which my there wasn't in my one experience), what's the problem? I will grant that it probably knocks a little resale value off the guitar in question, but we're talking about a utilitarian fix here, aren't we?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I fail to see how a shim is a "lazy" way out anyway. If it works (which it does when the right part installed properly), and there's no noticeable tonal effect (which my there wasn't in my one experience), what's the problem? I will grant that it probably knocks a little resale value off the guitar in question, but we're talking about a utilitarian fix here, aren't we?

And a completely reversible one.

 

[JLS]

Huh? Where'd that idea come from?

 

[F-Clef-Jef]

I've done it, and I'm not lazy. So the answer is: NO.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Huh? Where'd that idea come from?

Probably at least partly from the recent Ibanez threads.

First time that I've heard that kind of a claim though.

Regards
Sam

 

[Blue_Whistle88]

Huh? Where'd that idea come from?

There are people who place a lot of importance on "original parts", and originality in general when buying a bass. If modifications have been made to it, those people are usually deterred.

Some people may also be sceptical of any modifications in case they weren't done using good parts or proper care, and I can understand that. A shim is a pretty low-risk mod, and also quite ubiquitous, but you could still do one and end up making the bass worse. Highly unlikely, but some people are paranoid.

I guess it wouldn't definitively cause the value to drop, but you put yourself at odds with either of those groups described above.

 

[96tbird]

I don't get how some of you call a shim a MOD. It's an adjustment. Plain and simple. It's like calling filing a nut a mod.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Huh? Where'd that idea come from?

Y'know, like when you put it on Craig's List and the guy comes over and looks at it and says, "Yeah I really like it but I'm not paying that money for an instrument that plays so well....too bad the bridge won't bottom out. Oh, you've shimmed it? Jeez, too bad it's been modded....I'd only pay your asking price for an '09 Squier in ORIGINAL condition." Or something like that....

 

[202dy]

Bolt on necks were originally designed to be shimmed when necessary. Shims installed in bolt on necks do not affect the value of the instrument. In the vintage guitar market it is expected. When a neck is pulled to verify a date, lack of a shim is considered unusual. However, finding an original shim lends credence to the provenance.

 

[mongo2]

Hi.



Probably at least partly from the recent Ibanez threads.

I can see some of the extended Ibanez bolt-on neck heels protruding above the body if shimmed so maybe that has something to do with it. FWIW, I've never had a need to shim any of my Ibanez instruments with the extended neck heel.

 

[Martin Beer]

Just a thought, but is anyone familiar with Buzz Feiten's ideas about shimming? He considers that adding a shim to a guitar's neck pocket de-couples the neck and body to some extent, and in his opinion this improves the sound. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this, but it raises an interesting point. Namely, if a shim does change the sound perceptibly, who's to say it has to sound worse and not better? Surely that's open to the same subjective judgements as everything else about instruments and their tone?

 

[mongo2]

Just a thought, but is anyone familiar with Buzz Feiten's ideas about shimming? He considers that adding a shim to a guitar's neck pocket de-couples the neck and body to some extent, and in his opinion this improves the sound. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this, but it raises an interesting point. Namely, if a shim does change the sound perceptibly, who's to say it has to sound worse and not better? Surely that's open to the same subjective judgements as everything else about instruments and their tone?

Warning: Anecdotal info based on personal experience...read at your own risk.

I've shimmed many, many instruments using different methods and materials over the last 40+ years. I've never noticed a difference in tone due to a shim and I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing. But the methods used may not result in any decoupling or improvement in coupling between the neck and body.

As always, the quality of any change in tone for any reason is subjective.

 

[MoBe]

Fender got it right in the 70`s when they made the three bolt adjustable neck design on the Jazz Bass,unfortunately this feature was dropped probably due to cost and some of the argumentative nonsense that people invented back in the day,the same drivel that some players and guitar techs argue about today.The neckthrough design also solved the problem of neck to body attachment but it remains relativeley unpopular probably because most people realize that it`s an expensive and impractical solution to a problem that doesn`t exist.Then there was the Steinberger one piece design,some argued that it had too much sustain,and the list goes on.
The bolt on neck design works because it allows for affordable manufacture and playability adjustments throughout the life of the instrument including the addition of shims when necessary.
Have you ever heard anyone say, " your bass sounds like it`s got a shim under the neck" ?