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Should custom ordered basses be by contract?

Lo end PUNCH

Lo end PUNCH

Jan 28, 2005
2,535
157
Racine,Wi
#1
O K, me and a fellow TB'r Johnny B were discussing the wait times between ordering and recieving a custom instrument and he came up with the idea of having the Luthier/builder do contracts guaranteeing that the bass would be delivered at the exact or very close proximity of the time on the contract, this would eliminate somone saying that your bass will take 4 months and you actually get it in 1 or 2 or more years. What do you guys think, good idea/bad idea? Give your opinion.
 
#2
Yes I thinks it's a good idea. I've been waiting almost two years for a bass that was promised to be delivered in 6 months.

Signing a legal binding contract would make them think twice about the reality of time. But you would have to have the contract made or the builder would give YOU a contract protecting himself from any legal recoarse other than a refund minus a percentage/restocking fee.

He's not going to write the contract to protect the buyer!
 
#3
Some luthiers (like Ales Vychodil in AV basses) do that. I'm now waiting my bass, and i signed a contract with the specs, costs, build time etc before paying the half of the bass and before he started building it. Contract says 3 months minimum and 6 months maximum and if it takes more than that, i get the bass but don't have to pay the other half.
 
#4
are you also willing to pay more if it's completed early?

what a builder asks you a pertinent question and it takes you a week or more to make a decision ... does the delivery date get extended to accommodate your answer time?

what if a part supplier delays delivery of your custom order pre-amp (something a builder has NO control over) ... are you expecting the builder to compensate for this delay which is outside of their control?

what if your builder recommends you take a certain path (wood, pre-amp, pickups, and/or construction method) and you insist on something different ... would it then be OK for you to rake the builder thru the mud because your bass doesn't sound/feel/etc... that way you envisioned it would?



just curious ... and in no way am I writing this with an argumentative tone. the idea of a contract as you note is something I am considering - maybe not to cover things to the level of a firm delivery date, but to a level that provides protection to both parties entering into a custom bass deal.

all the best,

R
 
#5
Definitely. And the smaller the builder, the more specific the contract needs to be.

I would personally never place a custom order requiring lenghty wait times with a small, unknown builder. Reputation is everything. Inquire around and make sure you know your builder before placing an order - that is the best insurance.
 
#6
lefty007 said:
Definitely. And the smaller the builder, the more specific the contract needs to be.

I would personally never place a custom order requiring lenghty wait times with a small, unknown builder. Reputation is everything.
Click to expand...

small and unknown are two COMPLETELY different things.

There are some guys out there where its just them, and then some two or three man crews out there. It's tough on them as it is, I highly doubt these small shops are even considering signing one just to get your order. they want their stuff out there as best as possible as well, so rushing it at the end to make things meet makes no sense for them.

I mean, I have had to wait an extra 6 months for custom basses, but I would much rather do that that get something rushed. And if you feel that way, you really should look into a production bass or a bass by a team with quite a few people at the shop.

Just me though, and certain small builders I have talked too. Maybe some others are willing to take that contract to make that sale though.

However, I'll say this now, don't EVER beleive the wait times that some people tell you. Apply the filter, at least 30% off if not more.
 
#7
And who is to enforce such a contract? The authorities of the state the owner resides in or the builder? An out-of-state contract such as this is next to impossible for an individual to pursue in the case of forfeit. Besides, the costs we are talking about here will all fall into the small claims court arena and, while a lawyer can certainly be used, most courts rely on the named parties to do their own homework - it's just not cost effective to hire lawyers for these smaller amounts.

I like the Rodent's take on over-performance of the contract especially if the purpose of the contract is to create a punitive action against the builder. But, if a client were to insist on a contract, I would tell them I'm not their guy.

And, I'm sure that anyone wanting a contract will want to have specific satisfaction clauses and that simply won't do. I don't want to make mistakes or create quality issues while I rush to fulfill some arbitrary deadline, only to have the client use them as yet another reason not to fulfill his terms of the agreement. And you can bet that I wouldn't build anything else for that client just to avoid the hassle.
 
#9
Rodent said:
are you also willing to pay more if it's completed early?

what a builder asks you a pertinent question and it takes you a week or more to make a decision ... does the delivery date get extended to accommodate your answer time?

what if a part supplier delays delivery of your custom order pre-amp (something a builder has NO control over) ... are you expecting the builder to compensate for this delay which is outside of their control?

what if your builder recommends you take a certain path (wood, pre-amp, pickups, and/or construction method) and you insist on something different ... would it then be OK for you to rake the builder thru the mud because your bass doesn't sound/feel/etc... that way you envisioned it would?



just curious ... and in no way am I writing this with an argumentative tone. the idea of a contract as you note is something I am considering - maybe not to cover things to the level of a firm delivery date, but to a level that provides protection to both parties entering into a custom bass deal.

all the best,

R
Click to expand...

I do understand that MANY of the things you mentioned factor in, as a matter of fact a certain luthier I work with always lets me know about pickup deliveries, parts order times etc, THEN he will factor in build times, however 6 months into 2 years in just a little out of pocket no matter what. Is the luthier staying constantly on top of emails and phone calls when these unfortunate things happen? Is there good raport with the customer or does he simply not reply like some of the ones in a few horror stories I've heard here? I have a great relationship with the luthiers I've worked with, Matt Scmill, Bud Lecompte, Rob Green, Fred Bolton are all pretty stand up guys and have always been on top of the situation and I'm sure there's a lot others out there too.
 
#11
Rodent said:
are you also willing to pay more if it's completed early?

what a builder asks you a pertinent question and it takes you a week or more to make a decision ... does the delivery date get extended to accommodate your answer time?

what if a part supplier delays delivery of your custom order pre-amp (something a builder has NO control over) ... are you expecting the builder to compensate for this delay which is outside of their control?

what if your builder recommends you take a certain path (wood, pre-amp, pickups, and/or construction method) and you insist on something different ... would it then be OK for you to rake the builder thru the mud because your bass doesn't sound/feel/etc... that way you envisioned it would?



just curious ... and in no way am I writing this with an argumentative tone. the idea of a contract as you note is something I am considering - maybe not to cover things to the level of a firm delivery date, but to a level that provides protection to both parties entering into a custom bass deal.

all the best,

R
Click to expand...

1.If he asks me something, i always answer the same day, or latest the next day if i need to sleep ovver it.

2.If there's a delay cos of some parts supplier, in my opinion it's not his fault. But usually they order from the same guys and atleast i think that Ales (the luthier) pretty much checked the availability of all the parts he needed for the bass before we signed the contract (which really included everything). But anyway, i'm easy and patient customer, and he's the same so no problems.

3.We discussed (via emails) a lot about all the specs and the possible sound and looks of the bass before signing and we agreed about everything, so if can't agree with the luthier, don't sign. If you're going to order a custom bass it's going to have to be the way you want it. If the luthier says your vision is not reasonable hten you need to think is it becouse of the luthier or becouse of you and your vision. But i really recommend a contract, it is for your and for the luthiers safety and it really doesn't take so much time or effort to make those contracts.

But even if you think you have thought everything something might still come up (something came up in my order also, but no big deals) and then you just work it out.
 
#12
It's a great thought but totally unrealistic - just like contracts for gigs.

Here is why:
1. What is your recourse? Sue him in small claims court? Report him to better business bureau? Is that practical or effective? No.
2. Make him rush? No. They could skimp on things, do a poor job, rush, etc - do you want a $4000 bass to be rushed and half ass? No.

Realistically the best thing is to vote with your dollars - there are several horror stories on this site - spread the word and don't buy from jerks or unprofessional people.
 
#15
For me the contract would be more about specs than legal recourse. The idea is that if the specs are on paper and the bass didn't agree with the spec, then there is a clear reason to ask that the bass be fixed, component(s) changed or price be adjusted. If it is totally verbal, there is no way to even know what you ordered or if the order was communicated properly in the first place.

Peace,
S
 
#17
JAUQO III-X said:
Yes but not waiting when a luthier says 6 months and it turns into 2 years or more and yes I'm sure some of the delay(s) may be justified but the justification(s) should definitely over shadow the delay.
Click to expand...

6 months into two years I agree is ridiculous. Like, ridiculous, that is completely someone not being real about what they are telling you.

A few scenarios come to mind on something like this, like I know there are some Wal orders taken way back, the Bebensee nightmare, and some others. I don't think anyone should have to refrain from speaking about these experiences.

but you might want to do so after you get your bass. :smug:

as for a specs sheet, I can definitely agree with that.
 
#18
With all due respect, this isn't about rushing or being on someone else's time schedule, this is about the luthier/s keeping their WORD, period. This thread is not meant to be a bashing against luthiers or companies, it is in response to many customers that have endured long wait times without any proper business response or regard, if this doesn't apply to you, thats even better but if I'm told 6 months then why should I accept that means 2 years or in some cases 3 or 4? Again its an opinion about contracts for basses that the build time is set by the BUILDER, not the customer, I doubt any builder would let a customer dictate that.
 
#19
TheSuzie said:
For me the contract would be more about specs than legal recourse. The idea is that if the specs are on paper and the bass didn't agree with the spec, then there is a clear reason to ask that the bass be fixed, component(s) changed or price be adjusted. If it is totally verbal, there is no way to even know what you ordered or if the order was communicated properly in the first place.

Peace,
S
Click to expand...

completely agreed - and why I recommend that everybody purchasing a custom order bass conduct a post phone-call follow-up with e-mail to confirm all of the details were properly captured and documented. be sure that the builder send you a reply confirming the content.

it's all about good communication

all the best,

R
 
#20
I don't want my bass rushed. If a bass has to be done by a certain date corners my get cut just to make the deadline. I can wait another month if it means my bass is being made correctly. Besides if you want a bass that can be made in an exact amount of time go with a mass production bass.
 

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