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Should I give up on fretless?
- Thread starter mjcarp79
- Start date
My 2 cents, fretless is challenging, but so much fun and so worthwhile. I built my first fretless when I was 16. I had the fretless and a fretted EBMM. The EBMM got all the live playing time, I was terrified of playing fretless live. I eventually had to sell the EBMM to make ends meet (regret this hard now) and then got an opp to play a regular gig (two to three gigs a month). A little daunting to realize all I had was my fretless 6, but I played it more or less exclusively for 10 years. It took a long time to get proficient enough at it that my intonation was solid, but even now (with 30 years of fretless playing under my belt) I have off moments that make me think I should toss my fretless in the trash. Keep it up! It gets better!
I'm full time fretless player for many yrs now and went through the same thing as you but eventually got it down. I suggest only playing fretless when you practice with a on all the time chromatic tuner as a visual aid.
I feel this may be targeted at me. If it is, I want to be clear, I am not opposed to fret lines or glancing at your hand from time to time. However, I do believe that staring constantly at the hand will ultimately limit one's development. IMHO the fretlines should only be used to find your place, then your ear and hand calibration should take over...meaning a competent player can and should be able to look away from your hand.
Of course there are plenty of super great players who use bad technique...many of these people overcome their sloppy technique by being extraordinarily talented. Not all great players serve as great examples to emulate...especially if you do not possess the same extraordinary talent.
As an intermediately skilled upright player, I rarely looked at my hand...and I played jazz and classical. I find it necessary to look at the neck more frequently on fretted bass guitar, but it's still infrequent. For example it may be beneficial when I make a really big jump up the neck. Once I make the shift, it's not longer necessary to look at my hand.
IMHO upright gives you a much better sense of where you are, so using visual references tends to be less necessary. However, even on upright it's not unusual for high level players to put some sort of visual mark on the finger board that is used for extraordinary jumps high up on the instruments range. For example if you have an exposed entrance way up high on the neck, it can be beneficial to mark the spot.
Observing you technique in the mirror is good for development IMHO. It's not really the same thing as staring at your hand constantly and relying on fret lines to play in tune. I believe the intent of using a mirror is more on observing your form rather than where you are placing your fingers.
IMHO, rather than constantly staring at your hand, I think most developed players probably use sort of a visualization technique. In other words, you use your mind's eye to visualize what is going on with your hand and how it is interfacing with the instrument. Of course this sort of technique comes well into ones development.
Early on it's more acceptable and also more necessary to actually observe what is going on by looking at your hand or looking in a mirror. As you become more advanced, the goal should be to directly observe your technique less and less, and use more and more visualization.
Looking at your hand continuously is less of an issue for those who play exclusively by ear. I still think it does not look great to the audience, and if you are using your eyes to set intonation, I believe you are more likely to be using the wrong skill.
Overall I don't actually think we disagree all that much, but I could be wrong.
OH goodness no. It was a general post. I did not write anything that was directed at anyone specifically. Rather I was just venting about the strange ideas I see on this forum from time to time regarding playing without frets, so you needn't take offense or feel like I was attacking your point of view. I read your original post and pretty much agreed my friend. I also agree about your comments on the upright giving us a better sense of where we are because of the shoulder as well as whether we have an Eb or a D natural where the heel meets the body. Our orientation to the shoulder as we go into thumb position is another physical cue we have that the electric bass doesn't.
So, no I wasn't even thinking of your post when I wrote this. Carry on....
After reading the whole thread, I feel blessed that I took to fretless like the proverbial fish to water.
Picked up a MIJ Fender Jazz Special, with un-lined fretboard, and it was like a I was shown a whole new world I did not know could exist, with the electric bass. I played upright, in high school, so I had an idea what was possible, however, I had been convinced by many a music teacher, that in order to play a fretless, you had to possess a high order of musicianship, including, especially, a great ear. So, I never tried a fretless electric, as I did not trust myself. What a fool I was. Now, my fretted basses never come out of the case.
I am not tooting my own horn, I am just grateful I found a home.
Additionally, we all possess unique gifts, and we cannot let ourselves be constantly defined by other people.
Play on!
Picked up a MIJ Fender Jazz Special, with un-lined fretboard, and it was like a I was shown a whole new world I did not know could exist, with the electric bass. I played upright, in high school, so I had an idea what was possible, however, I had been convinced by many a music teacher, that in order to play a fretless, you had to possess a high order of musicianship, including, especially, a great ear. So, I never tried a fretless electric, as I did not trust myself. What a fool I was. Now, my fretted basses never come out of the case.
I am not tooting my own horn, I am just grateful I found a home.
Additionally, we all possess unique gifts, and we cannot let ourselves be constantly defined by other people.
Play on!
I found a Youtuber with some tips on this. He might be on to something. Some of this has been said here already, but it's helpful to see it.
To play fretless in tune you need to have your hand in a fixed position and play it as an instrument and not just a style. ... Practice using one finger per fret up and down the neck until your hand falls into place. ... If you have lines on the neck and play on them, on add markers to help with the visual, ... plus make sure the intonation is spot on, on the bass. ...
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Having read several of your posts, I must admit that I have been struck by the number of "beliefs" you extoll that I do not find evenly remotely true. In consequence, my recommendation is that you find a qualified teacher who can provide customized instruction and contemporaneous feedback; someone who can fill your head with right-minded ideas. Good luck!
Another thing that I felt helped me a lot with my fretless development is that I play through a korg rackmount tuner which has a rather large strobe display showing how in or out of tune each note is. It is helpful for practicing without looking at the neck since you can just watch the tuner while doing something simple like a major scale to see how close your tuning is.
About looking at the lines continually while playing, eventually it becomes impossible because too much else is happening on the bandstand -- your charts, making eye contact with other band members, interacting with the audience, seeing who just came in the door, and so forth. But I agree about upright and electric. The upright neck has a lot more visual and tactile cheats, such as the curves at the ends of the neck, the feel of your arm on the bout, and so forth. And the neck isn't all that long. On the electric, it's just this long featureless no-mans-land, and I definitely benefit from an occasional glance. But it's part of all the other stuff that's going on while playing.
As far as finding someone who really understands fretless playing and knows classical excersises, it's gonna be easier to find an upright teacher. The last thing he needs is someone who dabbles in fretless.
I don't recommend seeking fretless pedagogy from an upright player, unless he/she actually specializes in fretless. Some knowledge does cross over between the two, but IMHO the techniques for UB and BG are quite different and should be tailored to each instrument.
Would you recommend someone who want to learn upright a fretless bass teacher?
Having read several of your posts, I must admit that I have been struck by the number of "beliefs" you extoll that I do not find evenly remotely true. In consequence, my recommendation is that you find a qualified teacher who can provide customized instruction and contemporaneous feedback; someone who can fill your head with right-minded ideas. Good luck!
Could you please elaborate on the "beliefs" of mine that are untrue? I have kind of had my "world turned upside down" in the last 24 hours or so, in regard to fretless bass anyway. I am getting the feeling that I have been holding some very wrong-headed ideas, so if you could please elaborate to help set me straight, I would appreciate it. Thanks!
All,
Thanks for all of the good advice and encouragement! I do appreciate it. I would like to respond more fully when I get the chance, but am short on time at the moment. Lots to think about, and I have gained some insight into what may be causing my issues. I won't make any hasty decisions, either. Thanks again!
Thanks for all of the good advice and encouragement! I do appreciate it. I would like to respond more fully when I get the chance, but am short on time at the moment. Lots to think about, and I have gained some insight into what may be causing my issues. I won't make any hasty decisions, either. Thanks again!
Right on! They must be treated as distinctly two. It’s funny though. Been playing electric for 45 years, (16 of which includes fretless) and 13 years on upright, and I’ve had much more upright knowledge cross over to the EB (fretless) side than vice versa. It was quite refreshing.
Get thee to a teacher.
People who cannot improve their intonation often have bad left hand technique and a teacher can fix taht.
People who cannot improve their intonation often have bad left hand technique and a teacher can fix taht.
