Should I give up on fretless?

[Hevy T]

I play fretless sometimes and have always preferred it! However I mostly play fretted.

A practice thing I do that helps with my intonation is to play a fretted bass of the same scale and play ON the fret. This way it gives me muscle memory when playing on the fretless. Also NEVER be afraid or ashamed to look at the board. I have been playing fretless on and off for about 40 years and still need to look at the fingerboard most of the time.

One more thing I can offer is to don't be so hell bent on perfection. If you are not 100% right on the note I doubt it will even be noticed.

I find one of the best things about fretless is its ability to NOT be perfect. To me its what gives it the charm and uniqueness. If you could study individual isolated bass tracks against a strobe tuner I bet you would probably be amazed how many notes are not perfect. Just a hunch, but I bet I'm right. Fretless is all about being imperfect. in my eyes at least. Good luck bro!

also if you get a chance please post pics of your fretless especially the neck and bridge setup. There could also be a setup issue that's hindering you as well that someone might notice

NEVER GIVE UP!! JUST PRACTICE AND ENJOY!

 

[steve_ss]

... but I have since had it pounded firmly into to head that any looking while playing is a "cardinal sin" with fretless. Accordingly, I have been practicing almost entirely without looking...

I always look at my fretting hand while playing (both fretted and fretless). I even place my music stand toward my left side so I don't have to turn my head far from my hand. But... I don't play in a band or in front of people, so I don't have to look at other players for timing or changes. If you're playing for your own enjoyment, then look at your hand. Do what makes you happy. Have fun with it.

As a great star ship captain once said, "Never give up, never surrender".

 

[KidAmnesia]

I don't want to go full "the real treasure was the friends we made along the way", but... do you enjoy the process of learning fretless? Or do you think you will enjoy playing fretless only once you can play flawlessly with perfect intonation?

I switched almost fully to fretless a couple months ago and I know my intonation is still off probably most of the time. I guess it will eventually get somewhat better, but I have fun trying anyway.

The thing with playing to out of tune music is that you are constantly moving your refference points, so you are not building a reliable muscle memory of the distances between notes on each part of the fingerboard. It can be done and I don't think it would be bad per se, but it's far from an efficient way to learn.
And if you can hear your pitch is off, your ears can be further trained to discern wether you are sharp or flat; only ears thar are not "good enough" are those of tone deaf people.

 

[NYCBass]

Practice, Practice, Practice! I know it sounds cliché but it’s always what it comes down to. Read music when you practice so you’re listening more to what you’re playing and not relying on looking at the neck as much. This will also help you with your relative pitch ability so you can hear what’s sharp or flat. Play the same type of instrument, work on your technique on the fretted and it will translate easier to a fretless. Play scales and arpeggios on the lower register of the neck to buildup the strength in your hand. Like anything else, if you want it you have to work hard for it but don’t give up. The sound and expression is well worth the time and effort.

 

[Mr Ralph]

I would not give up if you enjoy it, eventually it will come. When I started playing fretless and my Upright with my long time Friend and guitar player who is a musically uneducated but incredibly naturally talented musician with perfect pitch. He would turn and look at me while we were playing and say you know you were sharp there or flat there. I told him I know, get used to it, I probably will be for the next two years. Its much better now but never perfect. But I love the sound in the right environment.

 

[FullumMusic]

Might I suggest putting down the bass (not quitting, just putting it down for now) and take some ear training classes. Do several months of ear training exercises to the point where you can just hear different intervals and chords by listening. You don’t need to call out specific note names like someone with perfect pitch. But the intervals and chords. And don’t sweat it too much because good ear training takes time. And it is something anyone can learn. People with “bad ears” don’t have faulty ears, they just haven’t spent enough time training them.

Then pick up the fretless again. (Okay okay. Totally cool if you play fretless while you’re doing ear training too. But you know what I mean.)

If you have a way of recording some basic piano or a clean synth sound into a DAW or something, record some slow tempo scales or ostinato phrases using the keys. Then loop those recordings and play along with them on your fretless matching the keys note for note, paying attention to your intonation. I can’t overemphasize, slow tempo, so you have time to really find each note. Speeding up is fine when you’re really nailing your pitch.

Then at some point you can put down a chord on loop and play the fretless more expressively over it. Hopefully at this point your ear and fingers will be better trained to play in tune with the chord without having to sit there and note-match.

Then after the one chord loop, try some chord changes, doing the same expressive playing over it. Maybe play games like, first time around nail the roots. Second time around nail the 3rds. Then the 5ths. Then nail the arpeggios. Then do whatever feels good.

(This has been fun for me because my next bass is gonna be a fretless and it’s as much a plan of attack for myself as it is a suggestion for you.)

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

So, I think there's a ton of great advice in this thread. But you don't say in your OP how you've been working on your intonation, just that you have and you still think it sucks.

I'm about 2.5 years in on playing fretless.
Here's what helps me:

Lines.
Drone tones: I go to a site called "natural cello tones" and play all modes in a key against the root, all keys.
Playing with others: it's way easier for me to find a note when the guitarist fills the room with it.
Hand position, like Jim Stinnett lectures about in one of his real bass lessons.

I'm no master intonation dude, but I've played hours of rehearsals, on lined and unlined basses, when the band members didn't know I was on fretless.

Personally, I stick with lines cause I think I'm more consistently in tune on the lined bass.

Anyways, maybe if you say exactly how you've been doing things, the guys above who are actually professional teachers of the fretless can weigh in more specifically.

Good luck!

 

[Ggaa]

I recently got my 3rd fretless in my life(sticking with it this time). Found that playing fretted with good left hand form has helped a lot. Also use a tuner some, and hit an open string for reference now and then. I can't see the lines on the fretboard when playing, the ends of the fret markers are a lot more helpful.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Are you playing other fretted basses also? I know that when I switch between short scale and long scale the spacing takes a little adjustment. And fretted to fretless is an even bigger adjustment. I think it takes many years to speak both languages fluently.

But if playing fretless is not bringing you joy, maybe set it aside?

 

[AltGrendel]

• Try songs you already know well.
• Practice octaves and intervals using open strings.
• Practice intervals and cords at any neck position.
• Be patient with yourself.
• Practice slow and build up speed on any song you want to learn.

The idea is to get muscle memory going and that takes time. Take some time and just noodle around so you get the hang of shifting positions.

 

[WestyBassBob]

Just for the sake of being contrary I’ll say. “Yes. Give it up”

Why? Playing bass should be fun. It sounds like fretless playing has sucked the fun out of it and now all you can do is practice and focus on “intonation”. Go look at the poll here somewhere about what kind of bass you play. The vast majority here play a four string fretted. But to look through the threads here you’d think all anyone plays here are fretless and/or five stringers.

I say keep it simple. Go back to a fretted so you can focus on actually making music instead being frustrated.

 

[drumvsbass]

Embrace being a little out of tune and buy a chorus pedal. Solved.

 

[Les Fret]

Embrace being a little out of tune and buy a chorus pedal. Solved.

Yes a chorus pedal solves all your intonation problems. Put a fuzz on top and you never have to worry anymore!

 

[TrevorG]

Everyone’s right about looking at your left hand. A strap won't let you anchor the instrument as well as the spike on a cello. It might help to also practice in front of the mirror. That would allow you a clearer perspective than watching from the side.

 

[ardgedee]

I have been trying to learn fretless for years, and I am wondering if I should "throw in the towel" at this point. I just cannot seem to be able to get the intonation thing down. I have some times where I feel like I getting somewhere, and then the next day I can't get anywhere even close with the pitch. Worse, on my bad days, I can't even tell if I am sharp or flat: all I know is that sounds like putrid excrement.

I have heard that some people just don't have "good enough ears," I and I wonder if I am in that category.

A whole other angle on this is one of the main reasons I was interested in fretless: the ability to tune on the fly to things that are not perfectly in tune. I have recently been involved in discussion about this here on TB, and many have pointed out to me that this is very harmful and flawed philosophy.

See: Is there such a thing: variable detuning pedal?

Between having been thinking about it all wrong for decades, and trying for decades and basically getting nowhere, I wonder if I should should just cut my losses and sell my fretless. The only thing that gives me pause is that I do love the tone of a fretless: I have never been one to slide around or use vibrato. I just like the richness that seems to be an inherent part of the fretless sound.

I don't really want to be a "quitter," but I don't wish the flog the proverbial deceased equine either.

I was going to post in your other thread but decided not to because you were getting good advice from actual pros, and I didn't want to sound contrary there.

But I would start with asking what your goals are. Do you play out, or plan to eventually play out? When you play along to recordings, are you trying to learn the bass lines exactly or are you treating the songs as a platform for noodling over? (Your actual goals are probably somewhere in between those extremes.)

I enjoy playing along with albums by Guided By Voices. They're about my technical level. Tunings are absolutely all over the place too (at least on their pre-1998 recordings), and can swing wildly from track to track. I use my fretless because it's more convenient to shift my hand a little on the fly than it would be to pitch-correct each of the several dozen one-to-two-minute long tracks on each album. I've found that this has helped my ear too, I've gotten more sensitive to when my playing gets pitchy, even when playing to albums from bands that tune properly. Convenient but not easier! It's surprisingly difficult to shift around on the fly like that and remain in tune with the recording.

HOWEVER, and that's a huge HOWEVER, and the reason why I didn't comment in your other thread -- it's a terrible way to learn the music you want to play with other people. First and foremost, when you play along with an out-of-tune recording, you can't use any open strings, because they're all off-pitch relative to the recording. The parts you memorize are going to be unnecessarily difficult, sometimes impossible, and highly likely to make you an encumbrance to your bandmates. Second, like I said it's actually really hard to shift your hand positions a little up and shift a little down from number to number. If you've already put in the work to get your intonation reasonably under control, you're now fighting (and risk permanently altering) your muscle memory, super-duper-especially if you're trying to memorize a part. You can use this as a means to break through and have perfect intonation control for everything all the time, adjusting your tuning on the fly regardless of who you're playing with, but that's virtuoso-level stuff, and it's going to be a lot of effort for very little real-world benefit if you're playing metal, rock, or pop. I'm a bedroom-level bassist and will probably remain that way, I don't really have to care about how I will play with other people. If you have different goals you have to adjust accordingly.

 

[drumvsbass]

Yes a chorus pedal solves all your intonation problems. Put a fuzz on top and you never have to worry anymore!

This is especially attractive if it's just bass, drums, and no other instruments. Put an octaver on it and we'll talk. Embrace microtonality.

 

[roswell1965]

I don't really want to be a "quitter," but I don't wish the flog the proverbial deceased equine either.

No mention at all as to whether or not you're having fun. Is it fun? Then by all means continue. If not, don't. Yes, it's that simple. And remember: the world at large cares not one iota whether or not you ever pick up a fretless (or any instrument) again!

 

[Knavery]

A fretless with no markers... That sounds like an instrument you need to spend hours upon hours upon hours to learn the muscle memory required to know where you are on the neck. There's nothing wrong with fret markers unless you're trying to prove something to yourself, which sounds like more hassle than it's worth.

 

[KenD]

There is the old saying that "Some people can't carry a tune in a bucket". They just don't have an innate sense of pitch. You may be one of those.

However, before giving up have you tried playing a lined fretless? With decent fingerboard hand technique that should bring you very close to proper pitch on every note.

 

[JazznFunk]

I had an unlined neck for about twenty years, but got a lined about three years ago. At first, I felt that the lines were helpful, but I have since had it pounded firmly into to head that any looking while playing is a "cardinal sin" with fretless. Accordingly, I have been practicing almost entirely without looking.

This whole 'looking at the fingerboard thing on fretless is a cardinal sin' thing is something I wish had died years ago. There are certain times when you HAVE to look because - unlike on double bass - there are few physical landmarks/cues to help you physically deal with the instrument during large shifts and in certain passages. If you need to look to ensure the phrase/line is in tune with a visual reference, then you look.