Should ships be armed to combat pirates?

[Marlat]

i thinks that's fundamentally wrong, even if it describes pretty accuartley what people in government think. the 'government' represents the people of a state and should do what the people tell it to do no matter how stupid it is, and not what it (they, the people in government) wants. you also get government and state mixed up. tax money is the state's property, not the government's just like downing street 10 is not government property. the state is ultimatley owned by it's citizens.

tax money is 'your' money and you decide on election day how you want it to be spent.

your way of seeing things would fit a dictatorship.

This is getting too much into the political workings of government and political theory to be a permissible discussion on TB. However, I think you are confusing certain points / theories in your post. Suffice to say, I don't agree with it.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

If that were true, why arn't we seeing the same piracy problem amoung US citizens or UK citizens or Norwegians, for example? Surely the overall economic condition of a country has some relevance to the liklihood of "rebel" groups acting as pirates without their native government doing anything to stop it. At a guess, i'd say the correlation is that where a country is wealthy, its in all citizens interests to have a stable government and stable governments tend to have stable armies and police forces to maintain that stability.

Despite Mark being from Australia, I have to agree with his statement.

 

[Gard]

Despite Mark being from Australia, I have to agree with his statement.

Despite Bob being from California, I have to agree with his agreement.

 

[Relic]

It's not poverty that makes a person steal, it's greed!

I know plenty of poor people that wouldn't steal anything from anyone, (then again, maybe that's why they're still poor)

did Bernie Madoff need the money?

absolutely true - greed is a motivator. But let me make a stupid analogy to try to get my point across - think of Somalia as the national version of a run-down gang-infested neighborhood. Gangs rule, people basically live in poverty and fear, gangsters/bad guys/whatever you want to call them, leave the ghetto to rob and steal because that's where the money is. The money isn't IN the ghetto, it's outside, right?
So you shoot every thug that comes out, it might prevent the thugs from coming out to rob and steal for a while...'till the next bunch comes out, and the next. Why should they stay in the ghetto? Nothing there for them, no way to get ahead, no job, no future.
But - work on fixing the ghetto and getting rid of the poverty, that's less people inclined to the thug life, there's now law and ways to enforce it, there's money to be made legitimately and there are people who can and will take a stand against lawlessness. Have you stamped out greed? Nope you never will, but have you created an environment that will vastly cut down on crime and lawlessness, yep.
Just my opinion

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

The solution will be a two-pronged one.

You must address the issues that create the climate in which piracy is a "viable option", which is the difficult part of things. You cannot just throw money at the problem and hope it goes away, because that will just create a culture of entitlement. You must educate these people, and help them to create some sustainable economy. The first thing that must happen, IMO, is that the warlord culture needs to be removed, with extreme prejudice. That won't be pretty, because these people think that is OK now, after the decades of it being the de facto form of government in that region.

The second issue is to defend the ships. Anything less than a "no tolerance" attitude will fail. Every pirate must fail, every time.

If both can be done, the region can be saved. The question is, who will step in and provide what needs to be provided, and take the negative press for the beginning of part one? No one wants to be seen as the bully that is beating up poorly armed and not well trained "militias" in their "technicals", but that has to happen. Without that, any other effort will fail.

Despite Gard being from New Orleans, I have to agree with his statement

 

[middy]

absolutely true - greed is a motivator. But let me make a stupid analogy to try to get my point across - think of Somalia as the national version of a run-down gang-infested neighborhood. Gangs rule, people basically live in poverty and fear, gangsters/bad guys/whatever you want to call them, leave the ghetto to rob and steal because that's where the money is. The money isn't IN the ghetto, it's outside, right?
So you shoot every thug that comes out, it might prevent the thugs from coming out to rob and steal for a while...'till the next bunch comes out, and the next. Why should they stay in the ghetto? Nothing there for them, no way to get ahead, no job, no future.
But - work on fixing the ghetto and getting rid of the poverty, that's less people inclined to the thug life, there's now law and ways to enforce it, there's money to be made legitimately and there are people who can and will take a stand against lawlessness. Have you stamped out greed? Nope you never will, but have you created an environment that will vastly cut down on crime and lawlessness, yep.
Just my opinion

So, how you going to "fix" Somalia and get rid of poverty? There's no point in even mentioning it unless there is a workable solution.

 

[Gard]

Despite Gard being from New Orleans, I have to agree with his statement

I think you're out of your mind. I retract my earlier agreement with your agreement. No one that is from New Orleans can ever be agreed with. Don't you agree?

 

[Relic]

So, how you going to "fix" Somalia and get rid of poverty? There's no point in even mentioning it unless there is a workable solution.

well one way is to allow Gard to become a world leader (even though he doesn't like New Jersey and would likely nuke us) and give him everything he needs to take care of Somalia.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

There are many impoverished coastal nations that nevertheless do not create a significant piracy problem for merchant and private vessels on the open seas. The difference between them and Somalia is that the others at least have some modicum of a functioning government that will enforce laws against acts of piracy.

The warlords of Somalia presumably have no interest in allowing a functioning government to form in their country.

 

[Gard]

well one way is to allow Gard to become a world leader (even though he doesn't like New Jersey and would likely nuke us) and give him everything he needs to take care of Somalia.

....I don't have a problem with Jersey...but Taylor ham...hmm...may have to label any factories creating the stuff as a WMD facility and take them out...



...oh, and anyone that wants ME to run the world is certifiably insane...

 

[D Rokk]

if u sit here and tell me these "pirates" are "impoverished" and have no other options i think you arent looking at the big picture.. they have hi tech and expensive boats and weaponry.. how is that impoverished?

some one is paying the bills for these guys, that is where ur problem is

 

[Marlat]

if u sit here and tell me these "pirates" are "impoverished" and have no other options i think you arent looking at the big picture.. they have hi tech and expensive boats and weaponry.. how is that impoverished?

That's like saying the janitor on the QE2 owns a cruise ship. It doesn't really hold up if you think about it. I doubt the ones on the boats with the weapons actually own them. I imagine the ones out there on the boats with the weaponry probably arn't the people making all the money in the operation. They probably are the poor ones who are jumping at the chance to make the kind of money they've never seen before because they are imporverished.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

...oh, and anyone that wants ME to run the world is certifiably insane...

Despite Gard being from New Orleans, I have to agree with his statement.

Besides, he would probably allow pirates to operate if their names were Jean Laffite.

 

[Relic]

That's like saying the janitor on the QE2 owns a cruise ship. It doesn't really hold up if you think about it. I doubt the ones on the boats with the weapons actually own them. I imagine the ones out there on the boats with the weaponry probably arn't the people making all the money in the operation. They probably are the poor ones who are jumping at the chance to make the kind of money they've never seen before because they are imporverished.

Bingo.

 

[Gard]

Despite Gard being from New Orleans, I have to agree with his statement.

Besides, he would probably allow pirates to operate if their names were Jean Laffite.

...only if they operated from a Lafitte (since you're not a native Lousy-anaian, you get a pass on the poor spelling - but you will be required to memorize the spellings of Tchoupitoulas and Thibodaux, or I'll send Gaston and Troxclair over to break your ankles ) skiff:

 

[Marley's Ghost]

Don't get me wrong, it was the right call for the Seals to pop em. We had to save our Captain. But to quote Sir Elton John:

It's a sad sad situation
And it's getting more and more absurd.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

One question: Why are we not lucky enough as a species to have these guys hyjack a drug boat from Colombia? The situation would be over in a matter of days LOL

 

[machine gewehr]

if u sit here and tell me these "pirates" are "impoverished" and have no other options i think you arent looking at the big picture.. they have hi tech and expensive boats and weaponry.. how is that impoverished?

some one is paying the bills for these guys, that is where ur problem is

You think these guys had the opportunity to be the CEO of a company (CEO in Somalia lol) and they declined that,instead they choose a life of adrenaline.

Have you seen the people cooking and eating mud?Literally mud.3 year olds,all they eat is mud.Yummy...

I don't want to talk big here,by if my/our kids had to eat mud,I believe most of us would point a gun at somewhere.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

...only if they operated from a Lafitte (since you're not a native Lousy-anaian, you get a pass on the poor spelling - but you will be required to memorize the spellings of Tchoupitoulas and Thibodaux, or I'll send Gaston and Troxclair over to break your ankles ) skiff:

I knew there was a double consonant and mentally flipped a coin to decide which one gets a twin.

We'll just do to Gaston and Troxclair what we did to Antoine! Ha!

BTW, your masts and spars are a mess, and those are the sorriest, most threadbare sails I've ever seen.

 

[D Rokk]

You think these guys had the opportunity to be the CEO of a company (CEO in Somalia lol) and they declined that,instead they choose a life of adrenaline.

Have you seen the people cooking and eating mud?Literally mud.3 year olds,all they eat is mud.Yummy...

I don't want to talk big here,by if my/our kids had to eat mud,I believe most of us would point a gun at somewhere.

nothing you said had a thing to do with what i said.. where did i say anythign about somalia i said "these pirates" i never said all of somalia isnt impoverished i said these pirates are getting money somewhere, find out where they are getting it..

if ur reading things i never wrote you really need to quit licking toads