Should singers who front a band know chord progressions?

[elgecko]

they learn like we learn to speak, by reproducing what we hear, fumbling and not making complete phrases for a while. The we start to learn to read/write and th rules of the language and poof we can have discussion of a higher caliber all of a sudden...

BANDLEADER: Mustang Sally. 1...2...1...2...3..[INTERRUPTED ABURPTLY]

CLEF DE FA: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let's have a high caliber discussion about this first. Sammy Singer, in bar 9, you're holding "Mustang" too long and pushing "Sally" to the + of four. "Sally" should come in on the downbeat of three. Also, lose the grace notes. They're not written. Karl Keyboard, I don't see a #11 on that F7. Geez! Don't you people look at the music?

 

[mcarp555]

I obviously come from a different place than you and many player out here. It is just a big let down to know that many things are considered OK when it just shows the lack of knowledge, lack of care. I've learn music in a formal setting where if you sing the wrong note, you sang the wrong note no matter if it sounded good or not, same with playing. Everyone had to know and understand music theory, even people who played drums/percussion. Otherwise how can you be efficient how can you communicate music ideas if no one cared.

I guess my standart is higher and I seriously don't care if it is arrongant or not.

Others have now commented on your attitude - you still don't seem to understand the difference between a singer knowing their part and knowing the context behind it. Yes, a vocalist in an acapella madrigal choir probably needs to know the chord progression, at least to some degree. But a country bar-band singer? Seriously? Should they also know when the drummer shifts from an open hi-hat to a closed one? When I was playing upright bass in college orchestra, we didn't give a fig what chords we were playing, as long as we hit the right notes at the right time.

 

[delta7fred]

I obviously come from a different place than you and many player out here. It is just a big let down to know that many things are considered OK when it just shows the lack of knowledge, lack of care. I've learn music in a formal setting where if you sing the wrong note, you sang the wrong note no matter if it sounded good or not, same with playing. Everyone had to know and understand music theory, even people who played drums/percussion. Otherwise how can you be efficient how can you communicate music ideas if no one cared.

I guess my standart is higher and I seriously don't care if it is arrongant or not.

You've obviously not played in many bar bands, I would guess the number is round about zero.

The OP is specifically talking about a bar band, not a pit band/orchestra or classical orchestra which I agree with you need to be a lot more disciplined. We are talking about playing music for people to get drunk to, they want to hear something that they know that is not challenging and if it has the occasional bum note in it they are very unlikely to notice. Unlike classical listeners who go to listen to the music (I know this because I love a good classical concert).

If all bar bands played exactly the same (key, arrangement, etc) then the club owners would book the same band every Saturday night because they would all sound the same so why go to the hassle of booking another band.

Have you ever tried to get the full score to Mustang Sally, Summer of 69, Waggon wheel, etc. etc? I guess not.

 

[Hahaha]

I've learn music in a formal setting where if you sing the wrong note, you sang the wrong note no matter if it sounded good or not, same with playing.

How do you know when it's a wrong note? In the original arrangement of Moon River, Henry Mancini wrote "wider" as a #11 or b5 against a straight triad. That "wrong" note is not accommodated by the chord in the first verse (and possibly those that follow -- I haven't heard it in a long time). Tension note? Wrong note? Who is to say? Same with Happy Birthday: "Happy birthday dear what's his name". Try to harmonize the first syllable of the name on the third "happy birthday" when it goes to the IV chord and make the song sound "right". It's not the wrong note, but if you accommodate it with an altered chord, that chord will sound wrong.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

BANDLEADER: Mustang Sally. 1...2...1...2...3..[INTERRUPTED ABURPTLY]

CLEF DE FA: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let's have a high caliber discussion about this first. Sammy Singer, in bar 9, you're holding "Mustang" too long and pushing "Sally" to the + of four. "Sally" should come in on the downbeat of three. Also, lose the grace notes. They're not written. Karl Keyboard, I don't see a #11 on that F7. Geez! Don't you people look at the music?

Obviously you took it very personnal and posted that useless and childish post, if you can't just disagree and tell me why then just say nothing

 

[avocado]

Obviously you took it very personnal and posted that useless and childish post, if you can't just disagree and tell me why then just say nothing

Maybe you didn't notice the earlier post from @elgecko , where they said "To suggest that someone singing jazz standards or pop covers should and needs to refer sheet music shows that you are firmly planted inside your ivory tower and completely disconnected from how music works outside and below that tower."

That lays out pretty clearly why the some folks are disagreeing with you. I love classical music and the concept of a well-executed composition where everyone plays exactly what's written, but if that were the only way to approach playing, it would eliminate music where the musicians are given license to use their skill and vision to make music within the scope of a song idea, let alone improvisation. Sometimes musicians have a formal theory background, and sometimes they've learned to play in other ways that are more practiced but not any less expressive. It would certainly be hard to imagine a genre like jazz where the arranger writes out every note instead of allow the bassist to just play over changes. Similarly, it seems unnecessary to expect a rock/pop singer or drummer to know information about the song above and beyond what they actually play.

If you can't see that, then I'm happy to agree to disagree. Or not. Whatever.

 

[delta7fred]

For a moment I thought I had inadvertently strayed into DB land but checking at the top of the page, nope, still in BG Miscellaneous.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Maybe you didn't notice the earlier post from @elgecko , where they said "To suggest that someone singing jazz standards or pop covers should and needs to refer sheet music shows that you are firmly planted inside your ivory tower and completely disconnected from how music works outside and below that tower."

That lays out pretty clearly why the some folks are disagreeing with you. I love classical music and the concept of a well-executed composition where everyone plays exactly what's written, but if that were the only way to approach playing, it would eliminate music where the musicians are given license to use their skill and vision to make music within the scope of a song idea, let alone improvisation. Sometimes musicians have a formal theory background, and sometimes they've learned to play in other ways that are more practiced but not any less expressive. It would certainly be hard to imagine a genre like jazz where the arranger writes out every note instead of allow the bassist to just play over changes. Similarly, it seems unnecessary to expect a rock/pop singer or drummer to know information about the song above and beyond what they actually play.

If you can't see that, then I'm happy to agree to disagree. Or not. Whatever.

I got that and I understand their point but still, that was a useless post and quite childish to use that kind of "bullying" because he doesn,t have any other argument to try to change my mind. And I guess he felt treatened and took it way too personnal.

 

[gln1955]

"bullying"

You take this way too seriously.

 

[elgecko]

I got that and I understand their point but still, that was a useless post and quite childish to use that kind of "bullying" because he doesn,t have any other argument to try to change my mind. And I guess he felt treatened and took it way too personnal.

My post was a satiric illustration of the absurdity of your position. It's funny, the kind of responses that arrogance elicits

 

[Rocker949]

For a moment I thought I had inadvertently strayed into DB land but checking at the top of the page, nope, still in BG Miscellaneous.

Several weeks ago, I found myself over there doing some research. It was truly bewildering. It's off the scale on the elitism meter, needless to say.

 

[delta7fred]

Several weeks ago, I found myself over there doing some research. It was truly bewildering. It's off the scale on the elitism meter, needless to say.

I suppose it's sort of understandable, for $50 you can pick up a playable bass guitar and with a few weeks practice can be jamming with friends or playing at jam nights. Back when I started playing I was gigging regularly (and getting well paid) after about 6 months.

DB on the other hand you have to add a couple of zeroes before you get anything even remotely playable, then pay a luthier set it up for you. Apparently it is a criminal offence to even suggest that you might attempt to adjust it yourself. You need lessons to learn to play it correctly so you don't injure yourself (something I do agree with) and for the next 20 years to learn theory, a big vehicle to transport it and a reasonable sized house to play and store it so you can see why DB players get so pee'd off at slab players getting an easy ride.

Having an EUB I lurk over there but try not to post because whenever I do I get shot down, even on matters where I know what I am talking about.

 

[Rocker949]

I suppose it's sort of understandable, for $50 you can pick up a playable bass guitar and with a few weeks practice can be jamming with friends or playing at jam nights. Back when I started playing I was gigging regularly (and getting well paid) after about 6 months.

DB on the other hand you have to add a couple of zeroes before you get anything even remotely playable, then pay a luthier set it up for you. Apparently it is a criminal offence to even suggest that you might attempt to adjust it yourself. You need lessons to learn to play it correctly so you don't injure yourself (something I do agree with) and for the next 20 years to learn theory, a big vehicle to transport it and a reasonable sized house to play and store it so you can see why DB players get so pee'd off at slab players getting an easy ride.

Having an EUB I lurk over there but try not to post because whenever I do I get shot down, even on matters where I know what I am talking about.

Yes, this is all true. I have only posted once over there. It was because someone was truly lost and needed help. I just posted that one post and left. My stay there was brief, but I think I got an accurate picture of how it is there. Like I said, I was doing some research. While doing that, I encountered someone who needed some info on navigating the site. I finished my research, helped him, and doubt if I'll be back. Just the thread cutting down Bob Dylan was enough for me (and I'm not even a Dylan fan.)

 

[Howlin' Hanson]

Yep, I go in, lurk, learn, and leave. Quietly.

Newbies shoul be aware that New Posts may contain DB threads. Reply at your own risk.

 

[Joebarnes]

It is good to see I'm not the only one who fears entering the DB forums. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy" (not really, but kind of)

 

[delta7fred]

It is good to see I'm not the only one who fears entering the DB forums. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy" (not really, but kind of)

Hehe...

On the BG side the answer to every question seems to be one of the following -

Use the search function
P bass (probably with flats)
Flats
Tort
Get lessons
Don't mix 115s and 410s
Jaco only needed 4
(I may have missed a few)

DB side

Take it to a luthier
Samandel (? spelling) and take it to a luthier
Practice your scales and modes more (and take it to a luthier)
What do you mean you don't have lessons, heat up the tar and pluck a chicken!

 

[Pork_Chop]

Update for anyone who was interested...The gig went great! I got an email Thursday night with the chord progressions, went through them a few times, took some notes, and we played great together Friday night. The singer sounded great and we were told at the end of the gig that it was the best that the band has ever sounded. Though I was very apprehensive leading up to the gig, I had a very good time.

 

[delta7fred]

Glad it went ok.

 

[avocado]

Update for anyone who was interested...The gig went great!

Awesome! Sometimes the best shows are ones you're not quite sure about beforehand.

Hehe...
Don't mix 115s and 410s

This is a new one to me, as I've heard some great-sounding players who intentionally used a 410 cab with a 115 or 118. Somewhat new to the forums; will have to educate myself.

 

[delta7fred]

This is a new one to me, as I've heard some great-sounding players who intentionally used a 410 cab with a 115 or 118. Somewhat new to the forums; will have to educate myself.

Grab a bucked of popcorn and go over to the Amps forum and ask if a 115 model xxxx will play well with a 410 model yyyy. See how long it takes before it gets nasty and the thread gets locked.

The general thinking is of the opponents is -

As long as both the cabs are 8 ohms the 115 will get the same amount of power as the 410 but can rarely take as much. If it is at the bottom you will not hear it farting out so readily so are in danger of blowing it if you get a bit eager on the volume knob.

Plus you will get all sorts of beaming and comb filtering effects which basically mean that if you were to walk across the FOH from one side to the other then the volume would not be consistent (not really a problem if you have PA support and only use you rig as a monitor).

Those who like the sound of them will argue to the death that it sounds good to them so it must be.

I have used 115 + 410 in the past but don't now. Yes they were loud and sounded fine on stage but when I walked around the room (we mix from the stage and I walk the room to check the balance etc) my bass came and went dramatically. I don't have that problem with my current cabs.