Show your Bill Fitzmaurice cab

[billfitzmaurice]

Woah, little doagie! Let's not get carried away here. While there is less harmonic distortion with these horn-loaded designs, you can look at the supplied frequency response plots and still see that they are by no means flat. There are probably a few direct radiator bass cabs at least, that are at least that flat, if not with identical profiles.

Axial frequency response is but one of many factors that ultimately determine how a speaker sounds, and the degree to which it is either accurate or colored. In fact, as far as typical direct radiator configurations are concerned, axial frequency response isn't necessarily one of their weaker points. OTOH, typical direct radiator configurations often exhibit poor off-axis response, comb-filtering, lack of vertical pattern control, high THD, low displacement limited power figures and low sensitivity. These are all factors that contribute to coloration, and in most cases not in a positive way.

 

[pedro]

[["Do I want my rig to reproduce my sound, or want it to contribute to my sound?"

That’s a tough question to answer for any number of reasons. I’m looking for a cabinet/amp combination that can produce any number of tones depending on the style of music. That’s what concerns me about the cabinet. As I said before, I realize my worries are primarily born of my ignorance concerning the science of sound reproduction, amps, etc. but I can only hope you guys can help me enough to understand whether this is the right cabinet for me. (It’s a foregone conclusion that these are excellent efficient cabinets.) So again I state my question in terms in which your answer might come in a form that I can understand – can I get tones appropriate for the era and style of music I play (60-70’s r&b, soul, rock) or not? Keeping in mind that for these styles some breakup and distortion might be desirable at times.

 

[Giraffe]

Hello, Pedro!

I've built a few Omni 12's and Omni 10's, and gigged extensively with the O12, less so with the O10. My opinion is that the cabs are intended to be full range instruments, or at least more full range, more truly flat way into the upper registers, than what we as bass players are used to handling. The powerful mids are a good thing for most bassists, the extended high end less of a good thing, as we might start to hear a brittle top end, accented with more fret noise than we want.

The good news is there are easy solutions to this extended fidelity. Rolling back the high end EQ on your bass, your amp, or both will probably get you where you want to be for a nice round, classic R&B tone. It's easier, and usually sounds better, to use EQ to cut overly strong frequencies than to boost frequencies which aren't strong enough.

When I built my first O12, I stuck to the plans and ignored Bill's note that a tweeterless version is bright enough for most bass players. I found that in order to get my sound, I had to roll the highs way back on both my amp and bass. I wasn't comfortable, using most of the available EQ travel to get the high end round enough for my ears, so I installed a fixed 6 dB L-pad (at a cost of about $6) to get the cab's voice tamed a little. The next one will have an adjustable tweeter attenuator, and I would suggest this is a must for most of us, if we build the version with a tweeter.

I think most of the grit in the old school music you're thinking about came from hot tube amps, and maybe even overloaded recording gear, rather than cone breakup. "Cone cry" might be too scary to try to emulate on a regular basis, because it is too easy to destroy the suspension if you overdo it! Using the right amp and gain settings seems like a better way to get the warmth/grit/overdrive that you want to hear.

In short, I think these cabs provide the robust bass and authoritative mid range that you need. The high end that you don't need can be easily dealt with. I do think the cabs need tweeter attenuators, though, if only to provide another tone shaping option. Alternatively, you can build the O12 with no tweeter at all, making it lighter, cheaper, easier to build, and probably better suited to your needs as well!

Good luck!

 

[pedro]

[[The powerful mids are a good thing for most bassists,

Agreed.

[[the extended high end less of a good thing,

Agreed again.

[[The good news is there are easy solutions to this extended fidelity. Rolling back the high end EQ on your bass, your amp, or both will probably get you where you want to be for a nice round, classic R&B tone.

Glad to hear it. Sounds like you understand the sound I’m referring to.

[[The next one will have an adjustable tweeter attenuator, and I would suggest this is a must for most of us, if we build the version with a tweeter.

I assume the key word here is ‘adjustable’ more to tune down the high’s rather than to accentuate them.

[[I think most of the grit in the old school music you're thinking about came from hot tube amps, and maybe even overloaded recording gear, rather than cone breakup.

You’re probably right but as if you listen to say the sound of Jaco’s bass on the live version of ‘Black Market’ you can definitely hear some grind and breakup coming from a solid state 360.

[[Using the right amp and gain settings seems like a better way to get the warmth/grit/overdrive that you want to hear.

I have a new GK 700RB and I’m having a 360 preamp made that I will experiment with thru the loops section of the GK.

[[I think these cabs provide the robust bass and authoritative mid range that you need.

Why and when did ‘midrange’ become a dirty word for bass players? Growing up during the 60-70’s I never had a problem hearing every note most bass players played either in local clubs or big venues. Now we have 10,000 watt PA systems and I can’t tell the bass from the bass drum. (Side track over.)

[[Alternatively, you can build the O12 with no tweeter at all, making it lighter, cheaper, easier to build, and probably better suited to your needs as well!

FastSlapper recommended the DR250 as it more closely resembles the sound of the 301 cabinet – I plan to look into it if it turns out not to be too much heavier.

 

[bassksun]

Woah, little doagie! Let's not get carried away here. While there is less harmonic distortion with these horn-loaded designs, you can look at the supplied frequency response plots and still see that they are by no means flat. There are probably a few direct radiator bass cabs at least, that are at least that flat, if not with identical profiles.

Not knocking Bill's real smart designs, just saying that it's not a good idea to misprepresent what's what, or BF designs will become just as tethered to innacurate specs beliefs as so many other brands. I'd hate to see that happen.

IME...IME...

I know nothing of frequency responses and other smart stuff.

Just compared with my experiences with Ashdown, Fender, Acoustic, etc.

My ear can tell a difference when A/B with my stuff. Maybe there is a spec that shows something counter to what I hear...but it isn't perceptible to me.

In fact, I thought I had done something wrong on my O12 because it lacked an overwhelming distinctive "sound"

 

[phillipmorephil]

Okay, so I'm interested. I'm in a funk-rock band (think obnoxious chili peppers and some jamerson), and I play at church. What would you recommend as a good cab(s) for classic/modern rock and sorta new-school funk? I'm playing through an old '70s Ibanez PJ, and currently looking for a head that I like. I dig the upper mids, little tiny bit of highs, and some bass, and I'm usually prominent in the mix.

Oh, and *subscribed!*

 

[Petebass]

I think most of the grit in the old school music you're thinking about came from hot tube amps, and maybe even overloaded recording gear, rather than cone breakup. "Cone cry" might be too scary to try to emulate on a regular basis, because it is too easy to destroy the suspension if you overdo it! Using the right amp and gain settings seems like a better way to get the warmth/grit/overdrive that you want to hear.

I'm not disagreeing with you Tom, but I think there's a little bit of a misinterpretation appearing here. When we're talking distortion and folded horns cabs, it's usually in reference to a lack of doppler distortion and other harmonic and tonal distortions more so than distortion from speaker cone over-excursion. Of course over-excursion is also relevent (as with ALL cabs).

 

[Giraffe]

I'm not disagreeing with you Tom, but I think there's a little bit of a misinterpretation appearing here. When we're talking distortion and folded horns cabs, it's usually in reference to a lack of doppler distortion and other harmonic and tonal distortions more so than distortion from speaker cone over-excursion. Of course over-excursion is also relevent (as with ALL cabs).

I hear what you're saying, Pete. That filtering effect the horns provide is not something most folks would expect when first investigating horns. I was just suggesting that for me, deliberately stressing drivers, like guitar players sometimes do in getting their distorted tones, is a little too adventurous! If I were searching for a dirtier tone, I would probably try to do it elsewhere in the signal chain, if only for economy's sake.

One other thing for Pedro to consider is the small size difference between the Omni 12 and the Omni 15. It's only a couple of inches in each dimension, and one O15 would be a much easier load that two O12's, which is a pretty large package.

 

[greenboy]

I know for my use of a low B (and even A on a Hipshot, if not stringing even to F#0 below that) I'm thinking Omni 15. No trouble EQing the rest to resemble other types of rigs really, once you've identified what is going on with other cabs - and for the most part as others have said you can use very blunt methods such as L-pads or switches even, or simple three band EQ.

Probably what'd be tougher at first for some players would be NOT hearing all that upper bass dopplering, harmonic distortion that they've been accustomed to. Actually the compensation of probably a lot of stage mix problems going a way would ofset that immediately... and any desired coloration is so easily had today in preamps, effects, modelers, etc, anyway...

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I'm not disagreeing with you Tom, but I think there's a little bit of a misinterpretation appearing here. When we're talking distortion and folded horns cabs, it's usually in reference to a lack of doppler distortion and other harmonic and tonal distortions more so than distortion from speaker cone over-excursion. Of course over-excursion is also relevent (as with ALL cabs).

It's true that folded horns, being high order low-pass filters, virtually eliminate Doppler induced distortion. But all horns, folded or straight, also have THD specs far lower than direct radiators, and to a great extent that is because less excursion is required for a given output. Another factor is that they place far less stress on the amplifier. By reducing the power requirement by 6 to 10dB a gain in active headroom the equivalent of having four to ten times the amp's rated power is achieved.

 

[Petebass]

It's true that folded horns, being high order low-pass filters, virtually eliminate Doppler induced distortion. But all horns, folded or straight, also have THD specs far lower than direct radiators, and to a great extent that is because less excursion is required for a given output.

It should be pointed out that while you're less likely to achieve over-excursion, be warned, yes it is still possible - and you're not going to get as much of a warning that the speaker is under stress with a folded horn. One minute it's working, then silence. So don't go looking for the traditional signs of speakers complaining when pushed hard because they may not be there.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

It should be pointed out that while you're less likely to achieve over-excursion, be warned, yes it is still possible - and you're not going to get as much of a warning that the speaker is under stress with a folded horn. .

That's a common occurance with PA sub-woofers in the hands of inexperienced operators. I've never heard of it happening with an electric bass rig, the levels at which that might happen would literally knock you off the stage.

 

[Sean S]

i just want to comment that my dad was very impressed when he visited Leland Crooks in Parsons, KS...

your cabs don't make good background music speakers because they're so efficient, he said...

 

[Petebass]

That's a common occurance with PA sub-woofers in the hands of inexperienced operators. I've never heard of it happening with an electric bass rig, the levels at which that might happen would literally knock you off the stage.

Agreed but "inexperience" is relative when you're dealing for the first time with a speaker of a type you've never used before. And human nature being what it is, chances are people will push these new toys to see what they can do, especially when the speaker appears to have all pros and no cons.

Now no-one can say they haven't been told

 

[bassksun]

Agreed but "inexperience" is relative when you're dealing for the first time with a speaker of a type you've never used before. And human nature being what it is, chances are people will push these new toys to see what they can do, especially when the speaker appears to have all pros and no cons.

Now no-one can say they haven't been told

Hey these have plenty o cons:
1. You have to build it.
2. You have to find someone to build it for you. Pricey!
3. You have to really consider and develop your "sound".

Finally, how many times has someone asked the same question as Pedro? (Maybe a BFM Wiki is in order?) These cabs mean research and not for the faint at heart.

 

[A9X]

Tweeters are optional, but keep in mind that a piezo array is much less intrusive than your standard compression driver.

Bollocks.
You may be referring top a cheap-ass tweet but not a Beyma CP380M or a BMS 4552 on a good flare with a suitable xover.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Now no-one can say they haven't been told

In the case of my Tuba and Titan subs that's certainly the case. Usage instructions are contained in the plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast slapper
Tweeters are optional, but keep in mind that a piezo array is much less intrusive than your standard compression driver.

Bollocks.
You may be referring top a cheap-ass tweet but not a Beyma CP380M or a BMS 4552 on a good flare with a suitable xover

I believe by 'intrusive' he's referring to the high sensitivity of compression drivers, which requires that they be padded to match the lower sensitivity of a direct radiating woofer. Piezos run on average 10dB less sensitive than compression drivers, so padding with them is seldom necessary.

 

[bgavin]

A piezo array allows for a wide variation in wiring schemes for various power handling and sensitivity requirements.

 

[pedro]

[[One other thing for Pedro to consider is the small size difference between the Omni 12 and the Omni 15. It's only a couple of inches in each dimension, and one O15 would be a much easier load that two O12's, which is a pretty large package.


Paraphrasing Indiana Jones - It's not so much the size but the weight that concerns me.

 

[Giraffe]

Pedro, I found that since these Omni's only house two drivers in a box built of 1/2" ply, they are a lot lighter than you would think, to look at them. I am very sensitive to the weight of gear, and I don't have a problem with the Omni's. They are not featherweights, but they weigh a lot less than typical cabs of the same size and output capacity (say, a 4 x 10).