Shuttle 6 Failed Me This Weekend

[Eublet]

I understand and in principle you are right but in the real world of local music it won't fly. In my case it was a dual gig for a local Harley Dealership and a resteraunt. The harley dealership had the power and it was a dedicated run from the building via a conduit in the ground so not ext. cables. We weren't more than 30 feet form the outlets and we use heavy duty power cables for our ext. cables. jUst real bad power.

But all that asside, if we had said no go until they fix it we would have lost the gig, upset both the harley place and the rest. and did I mention the radio station that was co-sponsoring it as well.

It was a lose lose for me no matter what. MM

It goes over just fine in the real world of local music if everyone is planning properly. IME power issues aren't the band's problems for those gigs. I wouldn't care if I did lose the gig. I'm not jeapordizing thousands of dollars worth of equipment for such a gig. You would be surprised what they might have done had you brought it up. They might have gone and pulled power from another place nearby. If you bring it up kindly, and tell them that the power source is bad and that you risk destroying your amps, PA, and other such equipment, they will understand. Of course it will frustrate them just as it frustrates you, but it's typically not directed at the band itself. The power is not adequate. Nothing you can do about it. Don't make it out to them as "risky" so that they expect you to chance it.

Again, even if they became infurated at me for refusing to plug up, I wouldn't do it. Hopefully, you guys have a simple contract that you use to book these engagements, and there is a clause in the contract about who will provide a clean, suitable power source, and that the commencment of the show will not proceed without it being met...and that you'll get paid even if you can't play because of a problem. Not only is that not unusual, it is normal and highly advisable to pursue such a contract.

 

[lefty007]

I thought that it had it's been documented here a few times on Shuttles failing in this way, but never read anything about power failure being the cause.

It happened to me, too, and power source was not the issue.

Even if the problem was the sensitivity of Shuttles to power quality, so I'm supposed to carry a line conditioner to every gig?

 

[Eublet]

I thought that it had it's been documented here a few times on Shuttles failing in this way, but never read anything about power failure being the cause.

thta was a non-related issue. This is a power issue that affects all equipment in different ways.

Even if the problem was the sensitivity of Shuttles to power quality, so I'm supposed to carry a line conditioner to every gig?

Line conditioner wouldn't have done anything here. A voltage regulator could have potentially fixed the issue depending on how much the power was actually fluctuating. The readout on the regulator would have told what was happening, as would a simple voltage meter.

And since you bring it up, the answer is a resounding MAYBE! Again, there should be some contractual agreements for paid gigs. It protects the band and the promotor. It doesn't have to be complicated legalese. Also, if you are gigging often with a band, it makes GREAT sense to invest (as part of the PA) in a voltage regulator as another piece of equipment to ensure the gigs goes smoothly, especially if you're doing lots of outdoor gigs running off of generators. It's pretty much a must at that point.

Do I personally carry around my own voltage regulator just for my gear? No. But the band has a contract on having power meet specific requirements. Even without the contract and without a voltage regulator, I'm not plugging my equipment up into an inadequate power source, not unless the guy wants to give me cash up front to cover my gear should it die. I don't know that I would do it still.

I don't see this often, but it does happen at least once per summer when I'm outdoors more. And I've refused to plug up, and I've yet to have anyone hold it against me. If the power won't get the job done, people tend to understand. Usually they fix it by pulling power from another source.


Another side tangent. Invest in a few HEAVY duty 100' extension cables. I have a large duffle bag that has two of them in there, along with some other odds and ends for emergencies (extra instrument cables, gaffers tape, band aids, super glue, tools, voltage meter, etc). It sits in my garage, is quite heavy, yet I throw it in the back of my Tahoe when I head out to a gig. I've used this stuff many times when I shouldn't have needed it, but was forced due to situational issues with the people who hired me/band not being prepared.

 

[Earwaxsculptor]

The harley dealership had the power and it was a dedicated run from the building via a conduit in the ground so not ext. cables. We weren't more than 30 feet form the outlets and we use heavy duty power cables for our ext. cables.

Just to clarify something here, it does not matter whether the run was a properly sized conduit from the building or if it were a properly sized (12AWG or even 10AWG for just ONE 20A Circuit) heavy duty extension cord run from the building you would still see a similar amount of voltage drop. Voltage drop typically becomes greater than 3% once you have more than 100 feet of branch circuit wiring between the device you are using and the actual circuit breaker, fuse, buss, etc....that includes all power conditioners, cords, conduit runs, termination points, the 45ft or so of wire you cant see that is run inside the wall prior to hitting the panelboard etc etc....

On a side note there is no way a single 20A dedicated line can keep up with an entire outdoor gig, two dedicated lines....maybe if you have efficient gear, but if the lines are run in the same conduit guess what? Now you only have 80% ampacity available to you if they are properly installed, if not you are heating up that wire waaay too much. (you ever see a white neutral wire that is brown or yellow at or near the terminations?)

Not trying to derail the thread into a electrical class, just betting that it was a power issue. Voltage drop and ampacity reduction from undersized wiring methods are very very common mistake in the field of electrical contracting in and of itself, insert the occasional overuse of 1 or two already undersized or borderline circuit installations and I make money fixing cooked electrical wires.

 

[Eublet]

Just to clarify something here, it does not matter whether the run was in conduit from the building or if it were a properly sized (12AWG) heavy duty extension cord run from the building you would still see a similar amount of voltage drop. Voltage drop typically becomes greater than 3% once you have more than 100 feet of branch circuit wiring between the device you are using and the actual circuit breaker, fuse, buss, etc....that includes all power conditioners, cords, conduit runs, termination points, the 45ft or so of wire you cant see that is run inside the wall prior to hitting the panelboard etc etc....

Exactly. That's why I have the 100' heavy duty cables like those used to hang off a generator. Usually I can get to an outlet that's right off a breaker box with those and pull power in an emergency. Even then there can still be problems as the power issues can be inside the box. Played outside somewhere last year and the breaker box was making sizzling noises on the inside. One of the trips was going bad, and we refused to play.

But the extension cables have saved us from not being able to play many times. Now I am playing with a moderate-volume band with very low power requirements. We STILL have stipulation on what we need powerwise in a contract. A bigger band with a big PA that doesn't have such a contract is just asking for trouble. It's very unprofessional to operate without a contract, and you can expect unprofessional results when you do so, like not having the right power, and not having a method to provide yourself an "out" when someone else doesn't do what is required to make YOUR show a success.

Again, most people understand that you must have power to run equipment. If a company hired someone to do some onsite carpentry work but it was determined that the power wasn't sufficient to run their equipment, they wouldn't get mad at the carpenter. They wouldn't expect him to "damage" all his equipment in an effort to make it work. They'd address the problem if possible, and just do without for a while if they couldn't. It would be frustrating, but it wouldn't likely mean they wouldn't hire that carpenter again. IME it works just that way with the band. Especially if you have a contract!

 

[Eublet]

One more thing. Google for "gig contracts", "performance contracts", and "booking agreements". You can get a wealth of information on how to put something like this together. Most people don't mind signing one. And if they do mind signing one, DING DING! You don't want to work for them.

 

[jokerjkny]

I had that happen once with my Crown K2 at an outdoor gig, as well (same power problem). I used a Fender Hotrod Deville 2x12 (tube amp) instead with no problems, although I didn't slap at all for fear of blowing out the speakers. Tone was great, however It's not just digital amps.

i've done that twice so far, and dont think i'll ever get used to the "thick guitar string" sound. boo.

funny, i've played an outdoor gig a few weeks back where the power was being drawn from a lightpole of all places, and my shuttle was just fine. *shrug*

 

[Eminor3rd]

Couple of thoughts:

A lot of people have reported so-called "digital" amps tending to shut down or drop out more easily with insufficient power, compared to traditional amps. The traditional amps supposedly are more likely to lose a bit of strength, or have distortion, but keep working. This is just anecdotal, internet talk, but there's enough of it that it's reasonable to ask the question whether that's what happened here.

Also there's a big difference between a voltage regulator, which provides a stable voltage level, and a voltage conditioner, which does very little typically.

Voltage regulator or not, if the power is intermittent, the signal will not be stable. Voltage regulators can ensure that there aren't spikes, but if there's no power in, there's no power out.

 

[Eublet]

Voltage regulator or not, if the power is intermittent, the signal will not be stable. Voltage regulators can ensure that there aren't spikes, but if there's no power in, there's no power out.

It depends on the depth, length and frequency of the dips (as well as the features and abilities of the voltage regulator) as to what it can stablize.

 

[musicman7722]

Great thread this has turned into but hey no yelling at me.

I was wondering if those in the electrical biz would know if this would have helped my (the) situation?

I own two of them.

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2833

It's a triplite LC1800

Premium automatic voltage regulation (AVR), power conditioning and AC surge suppression

Maintains regulated 120V nominal output over an input range of 89 to 147

 

[Medford Bassman]

I own a Shuttle 6.0 and I've never experienced this problem but it does sound more like an electrical supply problem, not an amp problem.

Two weeks ago, we were at a gig. While we're playing indoors, an electrical storm comes over us. BAM! Lighting strikes, guitar amp starts to buzz weird and hum, PA buzzes, Shuttle, not a peep. we shut down as soon as it happened and waited for the strom to pass. Shuttle is a-ok.

the electronic drum brain lost all of its presets. Drummer P.Od!

So there's my endorsement of the Shuttle!!

 

[whacker]

Musicman7722 -

Yes, that is a very useful and affordable version of what some are talking about here. There is also (or at least used to be) an LC2400 model as well, capable of a little more attached load.

I used to work for TrippLite in Chicago, advising people on what products to buy. These are referred to as "autoswitching multi-tap transformers", and do their work by sensing the input voltage in various ranges, then switching to another tap to compensate. Thus, the "nominal" aspect of the voltage out (it's not exact). There is a brief gap in power when they switch (maybe less than a millisecond, can't remember exactly), but it's supposed to be sychronized as to what part of the AC wave's cycle is present at the time. So they're a good product for this application. And, much more affordable than...

...a device known as a Constant Voltage Transformer (or CVT), which is quite a bit more expensive, but does not have any switching going on inside. Don't know exactly how those work (Google time), but that's why they're so much more to buy. And I think a bit more bulky.

The TrippLite units are about as big as 2/3 the size of an old Conn Strobotuner (how's that for an obscure reference?), so they're not bad. Their outer case used to be made out of sheet metal, but I'm pretty sure they're all housed in plastic now. They have four or more outlets, and also built-in surge suppression. I left the company in 1999.

 

[musicman7722]

Musicman7722 -

Yes, that is a very useful and affordable version of what some are talking about here. There is also (or at least used to be) an LC2400 model as well, capable of a little more attached load.

I used to work for TrippLite in Chicago, advising people on what products to buy. These are referred to as "autoswitching multi-tap transformers", and do their work by sensing the input voltage in various ranges, then switching to another tap to compensate. Thus, the "nominal" aspect of the voltage out (it's not exact). There is a brief gap in power when they switch (maybe less than a millisecond, can't remember exactly), but it's supposed to be sychronized as to what part of the AC wave's cycle is present at the time. So they're a good product for this application. And, much more affordable than...

...a device known as a Constant Voltage Transformer (or CVT), which is quite a bit more expensive, but does not have any switching going on inside. Don't know exactly how those work (Google time), but that's why they're so much more to buy. And I think a bit more bulky.

The TrippLite units are about as big as 2/3 the size of an old Conn Strobotuner (how's that for an obscure reference?), so they're not bad. Their outer case used to be made out of sheet metal, but I'm pretty sure they're all housed in plastic now. They have four or more outlets, and also built-in surge suppression. I left the company in 1999.

Thank you Whacker
Ironically I actually own 2 of these. Both given to me. Yes theyr are in plastic now. They alsoet you know how high or low the voltage is off 110 with some lights and will detect ground issues as well. Retail is around $225 on their website. I used to carry onw with me. I think I will just leave them both on the band truck from now on. Can't hurt can it.

MM

 

[seamonkey]

Kudos to Agedhorse and GB. It's incredible the amount concern they show for their customers.

I took a look at the back of a Shuttle 6 and the voltage requirements are plainly printed. It doesn't help much when you're at a gig.

Some other things that might have helped, if there were stage lights, turn some off, and/or ask the other's to turn down, including the mains. If these were SMPS and Class-d they would be more efficient and not drag down all the power.

And as many mentioned while it's generally worthless to buy a "conditioner" some of these things have a voltage meter on them, so you can tell if the voltage is low or high.

So what should an amp do if confronted with voltages, heat, etc... outside it's normal operating conditions? IMHO - cutting out is the last thing any amp should do. And I know from experience that at low voltages "analogue" amps also cut out, and Keyboards act up.

An SMPS can be regulated, but it seems to me, if the input voltage is too low to be regulated, it should just flash a warning light and provide a lower voltage to the amp. Worst would be someone would see the flashing light when they noticed the low power and distortion. But how often is this really going to happen? Is it worth the added design costs? I doubt it - nothing to panic about.

 

[agedhorse]

PLEASE, some caution is required when using voltage regulators such as those mentioned on large dynamic loads.

Where there is significant voltage drop due to source cable resistance, a tap switching voltage regulator can hunt and oscillate to the point that is forces itself out of regulation via "positive feedback" and either shuts down (hopefully) or self-destructs and maybe takes the amp with it. This is a very real problem that has plagued this industry.

Here's how it works and why it's not a good choice for latge dynamic loads:

As the load on the amp increases, the line current increases which causes voltage drop in the source wiring. As the voltage regulator taps up (boosts voltsge) to stay in regulation, the line current increases again to meet the new transformer ratio. (the transformer does not create energy, just changes the transformation ratio meaningthat to increase the voltage on the output, the current on the input must also increase) As the line current increases, this again increases the voltage drop due to source resistance causing the tap to change again, etc. Now as the cycle reverses itself, the reverse happens and if the conditions are right to cause sypmathetic oscillation you have a real nasty and costly mess on your hands. The control system adjusting the taps can chatter and hunt within the positive feedback causing additional potential for failure. These devices are a lot more complicated than the casually appear.

We do not recommend using a tap changing voltage regulator on our amps. I wouldn't use them on ANYy large amp myself. They are fine for loads that do not change though. The constant voltage transformers (also called ferro-resonant transformers) also suffer from this effect though nowhere near as badly since there is not the control system loop stability involved, just the more mild positive feedback.

 

[figuredbass]

There's all kinds of nasty power out there. You really can't blame the amps or gear. There's no good reason in this day and age why any venue can't supply adequate power or why the voltage should drop below 105 volts or so, let alone 90!

I've been on a number of gigs were the power situation was pretty bizarre, if not downright dangerous. Many clubs I've worked in have had outlets wired illegally by unlicenced "electricians" to cut costs, who have reversed the hot and neutral of the outlet, or where the ground prongs weren't connected at all. On a couple of occasions we were told to plug into outlets that had insufficient voltage to keep the keyboards booted up. It turned out that these outlets were on dimmers! The weirdest was one gig where we were playing a wedding in a remote outdoor tent powered only by generators. The generator's voltage setting slider was broken and kept slipping back to well below 100 volts. My outboard gear hummed continually since the voltage had dropped below the regulation threshold. The keyboards would not boot up and retain their patches, and the guitar amp was very distorted. We couldn't function at all until I thought to grab a cork from an opened champagne bottle off one of the tables and wedge it into the voltage setting slider to hold it in place!

 

[Grimoire]

Waiting to hear what caused mine to fail... it might have been related to dodgy Dutch power, but I'm no engineer. It would be foolish to assume this is an endemic issue, given the number of units out there, compared to the number of reported failures. Granted that's not a huge consolation when yours is one that goes down...

 

[Finsterino]

Those that are concerned about your power quality in remote places might consider a cheap power line monitor - here is one I found:

# RMS voltage reading
# Outlet surge voltage protection
# Easy to read backlit LCD
# Plugs directly into 3-pole outlet
# Reads inverters accurately
# Reads frequency (in Hertz)
# Easy 1-button interface to switch between readings
# High and low voltage and frequency momentary audible alarms
# Wiring alarms for incorrect polarity or bad ground
#

SALE 69.00

Link Removed

They show it at the bottom of the page - also available other places.

 

[JKT]

Musicmans scenario is exactly the kind of thing that can be eliminated with an A?C regulator. At least that has been our experience.

And this pc of gear was really no fun to buy. I didn't want to buy it. But the amount of unknown, outdoor, nebulous power situations demanded it. And that headache is gone now. So far. Plus I'm sure many of us have had KB players freakout when their KB's default under brownout situations too.

The guitar player and I are 2 of three principle players in the organization. We have the most time, money,gear, and history invested. We split the cost of the unit. It sits in a small stand alone rack that doesn't weigh much so it can be used on any type of gig whether we're using our stuff or just backline,etc. It has eight outlets in the back. Everyone plugs in to it. I think it is a very handy pc of gear for the working musician. We spend way more on other types of gear that really could be considered a luxury or non-essential. But these units help the rest of our stuff do its job under less than optimum conditions, and also protect it when things go horribly wrong.

No club or even large venue or festival is gonna take responsibility for our gear when something goes wrong with the power. And most of us are getting paid dough from these places that would never cover the cost of repair or replacement.

The A/C line reg gets plugged in FIRST, everytime. When the green lights come on, everything is cool. When they don't, no harm, no foul, no hysteria.

JKT

 

[agedhorse]

JKT, what are you using for a voltage regulator, and what kinds of loads are you using it with?