Shuttlemax 12.0 question

[KJung]

Let me restate exactly how it works (it's also clearly explained in the owner's manual) so that you understand WHY it works like it does.

The Clip-Limit LED indicates the point where the output tube emulation limiter begins to operate. Like a tube output stage, there is some compression that happens (actually variable slope, frequency dependant stuff) and some harmonic enhancement stuff. This begins to happen about 1-2dB before the amp actually clips and there's about 5-6dB of compliance between the point that the limiter begins to operate and the power amp actually clips. The LED indicates to the player when you are getting within a dB or two of the maximum rated power AND the limiter is operating. This way you know where in the output range you are operating. It's now up to the player to decide how much of the output tube emulation limiting is suitable for the playing/music style. Knowing this information helps prevent amp clipping BEFORE it happens. There's nothing goofy about it. Don't ignore the light, understand how it works and then use itto your advantage. Figure out how much limiting you prefer. You will hear the amp clipping if you push it hard enough. The limiter is very misucal and hard to hear operate (unlike some other bass amps) which is why the LED is so important.

Really, how good is it to learn that the signal is clipping AFTER it's already clipped. This is why most audio consoles input clip LEDs illuminate between 3-6dB BEFORE clipping occurs for example.

Most pro audio power amps show the actual clip point because the LED doesn't really monitor clipping but shows other things as well to the knowledgeable user/engineer, such as loss of global feedback. Again, a dual function indicator that is done this way for a good reason that is not really applicable to the average bass player IMO.

This is an old topic. While I think it's a strange design (for a bass amp, anyway) , I TOTALLY understand how it works, and also totally, completely utterly understand the logic.

That's why I post up and try to help your many customers who continue to be confused by it

I much prefer a clip light to tell me when I'm VERY close to being in trouble, not 6db away from it and having to then 'guess' when I'm very close to being in trouble.

 

[bassman515]

Got it...that makes complete sense.
Do my settings seem like i should be hitting the limiter? Obviously, it is only doing it on my hardest notes. I was reading in the manual that the optimum setting for the master is between 9:00 and 3:00 which i was well within, but if i would have turned it all the way up to 3:00 i would assume i would have clipped the amp...thoughts?

 

[agedhorse]

It all depends on the output sensitivity of the bass, how hard you are playing, and how much EQ you are using.

 

[agedhorse]

This is an old topic. While I think it's a strange design (for a bass amp, anyway) , I TOTALLY understand how it works, and also totally, completely utterly understand the logic.

That's why I post up and try to help your many customers who continue to be confused by it

I much prefer a clip light to tell me when I'm VERY close to being in trouble, not 6db away from it and having to then 'guess' when I'm very close to being in trouble.

Ken -

first, it's not a clip light. It's labeled as a clip-limit light.

second, it tells you when you are entering limiting AND you are 1-2db away from the clipping point.

third, that 1-2dB below clip is then extended (or compressed/limited) to allow another 5-6dB of input before the output increases the additional 1-2dB into clip.

fourth, because the limiter is very transparent/musical, we found many players like to run into it to get that "feel", so the LED is important for that player to know where they are in the output power range. We could have used a limit LED and a Clip LED, but felt that one LED that handled this function was good for most players. On some of our older products that didn't have this feature, clipping came up too abrubtly for some after sliding through the limiter's compliance.

Hope this helps with the whys and cuts down on everybody's second-guessing.

 

[bassman515]

Everything is flat...on the bass and the amp. the output on the bass is not extremely hot, and i do have the amp set to the low setting as to cut it 10db. Gain at around 1:00 and volume at 12:00. Master at 11:00

 

[KJung]

Ken -

first, it's not a clip light. It's labeled as a clip-limit light.

second, it tells you when you are entering limiting AND you are 1-2db away from the clipping point.

third, that 1-2dB below clip is then extended (or compressed/limited) to allow another 5-6dB of input before the output increases the additional 1-2dB into clip.

fourth, because the limiter is very transparent/musical, we found many players like to run into it to get that "feel", so the LED is important for that player to know where they are in the output power range. We could have used a limit LED and a Clip LED, but felt that one LED that handled this function was good for most players. On some of our older products that didn't have this feature, clipping came up too abrubtly for some after sliding through the limiter's compliance.

Hope this helps with the whys and cuts down on everybody's second-guessing.

Again, +1. It just seems to cause some confusion, since most bass amps have a clip circuit that simply says, if this light comes on a lot, turn down!

I am one who typically uses his ears to determine my tone, not my eyes, and only really appreciate the 'warning lights' as a 'turn down stupid!' sort of 'indication as a last resort'.

A dual color light that would distinguish between 'clip' and 'musical limit' would obviously clear up the entire issue for most of your customers.

I believe you have actually lost sales (based on some posts here and talking to other players) because many (most?) who see that 'clip/limit' light come on figure (incorrectly) that the amp has reached its limits.

Many (most?) players do not have the interest or background to make use of the information in the manual that explains 'soft limiting', etc.... hence the confusion that continues to swirl around this particular feature.

Some friendly marketing advice... if it isn't too expensive to put a dual color diode or whatever in that to change color at true 'power amp clip', you would totally eliminate this issue (i.e., when the light turns orange, it means you are getting some compression that is meant to emulate a tube amp, when the light turns red, turn down).

Pure IMO!

 

[agedhorse]

Everything is flat...on the bass and the amp. the output on the bass is not extremely hot, and i do have the amp set to the low setting as to cut it 10db. Gain at around 1:00 and volume at 12:00. Master at 11:00

Certainly could be, that's well within the ballpark given the 50:1 level difference between some active and some passive pickups on the market.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

not so much a bump but more of a question. Which thread covers this more in depth. I have been using my 12.0 SM for several months now but still feel like I'm not getting as much out of this head as I should be. And believe you me I think this is the greatest amp head since my Glockenklang (which I still have).

peace Kirk