Double Bass Simandl vs BG technique on DB

[wpatton11]

So . . . I've been playing bass for well over 50 years, first 30 on electric, last 20 predominately on string bass. As I'm self-taught I used the 1 finger per note electric style, built my strength and intonation, played many gigs. I always noticed other bassists' left hands looked different, which I came to understand was the more classical Simandl (or, I guess others) technique which I'm now practicing. My question is - - does it make sense at this point to re-learn my left hand? Why is the ring finger always reinforcing the pinky? Is there a basic fact of human ergonometrics that dictates this as the better position? thanks ~~~

 

[Steve Freides]

You should do whatever works for you.

As the scale length (playing length of the string) changes, so do the recommendations and teaching traditions for how to finger. I grew up playing guitar, 4 fingers for 4 frets. The scale length of a guitar is usually around 25 ". The scale length of a 3/4 size double bass (the size most adults play) is around 41", and most hands can't comfortably reach far enough to play one-finger-per-fret, so we lessen the reach by not using our third finger.

When I play electric bass, I tend to finger like an upright when in the lowest 5 frets or so, and like a guitar when higher up the neck than that. An electric bass' scale length is usually in-between that of a guitar and that of an upright.

When you move to smaller scale lengths, the recommendations change again and for the same reasons.

-S-

 

[TroyK]

I can't say if it's worth it to you or not, but the idea with that Simandl positioning as I understand it is:

a) the pinky is not strong enough to do that work by itself, so you want the other fingers (and arm weight) sharing that load so that you don't injure yourself.
b) the spacing of index finger to pinky more accurately covers 3 half-steps rather than 4, so by positioning and shifting, but maintaining that hand position up to the octave, you're setting yourself up to play in tune. Also no frets to mark the board up for you, so those shifts (positions in Simandl) orient you to where you are and how to navigate to other positions.

There are competing technical approaches, though Simandl seems to have been the most common up until fairly recently. But, again, if you've been playing DB for 20 years you would know best. If you're not having any pain in your left hand and can play everything that you want in tune, then it may not be worth it to you.

 

[jj.833]

If you can play in tune with no physical issues, there's likely no reason to re-learn.

This said, I always learn something new when I go over the basics again with a different focus.

 

[wpatton11]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For now I think I'll continue with the Simandl studies, if just for the discipline. It'll be interesting to see which technique prevails when I'm finally back on a real gig and the drummers kicking at 180 bpm.

 

[statsc]

Don’t re-bed your deck fixtures if they don’t leak!

 

[wpatton11]

Don’t re-bed your deck fixtures if they don’t leak!

wise advice, grasshopper!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Good advice above. I'll just add that while I play 1-2-4 in the lower positions, I don't use the claw position for the most part and also don't really reinforce the pinky with the ring finger; when I play with the pinky, it might look like that but in reality the ring finger is just nestling up to the pinky because that's where it naturally wants to be.

 

[BarfanyShart]

It's worth trying ... lifelong journey and all that. You may find it more efficient and comfortable in lower positions. You may also finding that just practicing a little Simandl is good for your shifting. And, of course, you may get totally annoyed by it and move on. I think it's all good.

 

[damonsmith]

I would do a very honest assessment with electronic tuner with the bow. I have seen posts like this on talkbass, I've NEVER seen this actually work for anyone in person.
I would also suggest working through the Simandl book and see which one works better, even if you do find it works.

So . . . I've been playing bass for well over 50 years, first 30 on electric, last 20 predominately on string bass. As I'm self-taught I used the 1 finger per note electric style, built my strength and intonation, played many gigs. I always noticed other bassists' left hands looked different, which I came to understand was the more classical Simandl (or, I guess others) technique which I'm now practicing. My question is - - does it make sense at this point to re-learn my left hand? Why is the ring finger always reinforcing the pinky? Is there a basic fact of human ergonometrics that dictates this as the better position? thanks ~~~

 

[damonsmith]

I would suggest this. Bass players from people with your story to top classical players have been trying to do this for several decades at least, with very little concrete evidence and zero as a full time working method.
The fact that you are not a full time bassist is going to make me even more doubtful, sorry. Working through Simandl with the bow is one of the few proven methods to give us a fighting chance, and a fighting chance is all most of us get.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For now I think I'll continue with the Simandl studies, if just for the discipline. It'll be interesting to see which technique prevails when I'm finally back on a real gig and the drummers kicking at 180 bpm.

 

[bherman]

FWIW, I’ve got pretty big hands and for me it’s difficult to use all 4 fingers in the lower register (below eighth position) and play exactly in tune. Simandl is great for the discipline and consistency that it gives you.

 

[SRL]

Arthur Davis wrote a method using all four fingers for left hand fingering.

 

[Steve Freides]

Must we call traditional upright bass fingering "Simandl?"

-S-

 

[wpatton11]

I've been playing through the Simandl exercises every day and am beginning to see the point, I think. The crux will come when I'm back on a gig and the changes are coming fast. But the more I get my muscle memory dialed in, the more facile this method will become. A hidden benefit of the otherwise thoroughly odious plague layoff . .

 

[Wasnex]

So . . . I've been playing bass for well over 50 years, first 30 on electric, last 20 predominately on string bass. As I'm self-taught I used the 1 finger per note electric style, built my strength and intonation, played many gigs. I always noticed other bassists' left hands looked different, which I came to understand was the more classical Simandl (or, I guess others) technique which I'm now practicing. My question is - - does it make sense at this point to re-learn my left hand? Why is the ring finger always reinforcing the pinky? Is there a basic fact of human ergonometrics that dictates this as the better position? thanks ~~~

Few people have large enough hands to use one finger per half step on upright. I have read Stanley Clarke can do it--I don't know if it's true.

There are players who use a four finger technique that involves pivots are micro-shifts. Some use a similar technique on bass guitar, rather than one finger per fret.

Here's a video:


Marcos Machado has not published all of the books he mentions in the video, and the print version of Volume 1 is currently sold out. The E-book of Vol 1 is available here: https://www.taoofbass.com/

I believe Mr Machodo's bass is more of a solo size than standard 3/4, so that may be a significant factor.

My story:
I started upright using Simandl. When I started learning to play bass guitar I simply applied and adapted what I had learned on upright. All of my formal training was on upright. Never had single bass guitar lesson.

About two years into my pro career it was becoming increasingly obvious that I would benefit from using one finger per fret on bass guitar. So I set about figuring out a new fingering system. Concurrent to this, I also transitioned to 5-string BG, and then a few years later to 6-string BG. Honestly adding the extra strings was far more challenging for me than developing/learning a new fingering system. When I got lost with OFPF, I simply reverted back to Simandl fingering. But If got lost on an extended the fret board of an extended range instrument, I really felt lost and panicked.

I felt relatively competent playing extended range instruments after about two years. But IMHO it took close to a decade before I felt like I was a natural on 6-string. A 6-string player tends to play across the strings more than up and down the neck, so you develop different ways of thinking and navigating around the instrument. That doesn't mean you lose the ability to shift, it's just not what comes immediately to mind when you see notes on a page coming at you at light speed. Now when I play a 5-string or 4-string bass guitar, I really miss the extra string(s) and sometimes have to stop and work out how to play lines that I can easily play on 6-string.

I played upright and bass guitar for the duration of my career, and my technique on each instrument continually become more and more specialized. My journey was from upright to bass guitar, and your journey is from bass guitar to upright. I suspect that you will find that as you continue to hone your skills on each instrument, you will also find it necessary to specialize on each instrument exactly as I did. This will cause your technique on each instrument to become more and more differentiated as time passes.

 

[damonsmith]

Must we call traditional upright bass fingering "Simandl?"

-S-

Agreed. Also, the best thing about Simandl is the exercises. Putting them through the paces in all fingerings we might use is the best way to get the most out of Simandl.

 

[damonsmith]

The basic idea is, you are going to have to shift anyway. One more half step isn't enough. So it is a lot fidgeting, stretching and instability when you are just going to have to shift anyway. Once shifting isn't an issue for you it is best to be comfortable.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Because I started on upright, I learned Simandl, and now I use it on bass guitar as well.

 

[damonsmith]

Because I started on upright, I learned Simandl, and now I use it on bass guitar as well.

People do that, I suppose it depends on how much you play BG. I feel like one of the only reasons to pick up the BG is to use one finger per fret. I also love frets!
Also, we should be about to use a few different fingering options on double bass, if you can, then switching isn't an issue.