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Double Bass simple and inexpensive option for doubling?

#21
I'll try to keep this short. I got into this over the summer as well. Had a couple of gigs that required both.

My P-bass tone leans very much towards B15'ish stuff, mid scooped, flat wounds, etc. I didn't want to try to get that out of some Hi-Fi, multi channel thing. So.....

My solution was to run a VT Bass preamp after my p-bass, my normal preamp setup for my upright, and switch them with an A-B into the FX return on my head. It was a good plan in theory, however the A-B switch I used (acquired for free from a friend) had bleed issues on it. I would like to try this setup again with a better A-B pedal. IME the two channel, one-size-fits-all preamps just don't cut it for doubling if you happen to be as particular about your bass guitar tone as you are for your upright tone.

Since the A-B didn't work, I just ran my upright setup though the FX return with it's own mute/tuner pedal, and my bass guitar through the normal input/preamp on my Ampeg head, again with it's own mute/tuner (and ditched the VT). I left my bass guitar unplugged from the head, but muted. For changeover I just muted the UB, unplugged from the FX return - then plugged in the bass guitar to the regular input, unmuted it and got on with it. I was able to change over quickly during stage banter and song intro without effecting the set.

It was kind of a hokey setup, but it worked. More importantly both instruments sounded the way I wanted them to, and I didn't have to spend more money on gear.
 
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#23
neddyrow said:
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...
2. To switch to electric I have to walk back to amp hold DB to adjust knobs as to not cause any feedback or hum - kinda cumbersome on smaller stages.
3. Set DB down and pick up electric.
4. Adjust knobs to get electric going.
...
Click to expand...
How about putting the amp head close to you on the stage [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] with a longer speaker cable? Then amp mute and adjust volumes before you switch basses.
 
#24
I found a free solution I like.

I run the upright through my amp. I run the electric into the effects return.

This works for me because (a) the upright benefits from the amplifier preamp, (b) the electric is active with tone controls, and doesn’t require the amplifier preamp, and (c) the volume knob on the electric mutes it.
 
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#25
neddyrow said:
it looks like the best idea is to get a pedal tuner for the DB and just use the volume knob on the electric.

reviews weren't to stellar on most of the ABY pedals anyway and i need a pedal tuner.
Click to expand...

Yep, it's the easiest and cheapest solution.

If I were you, I would ask FOH to insert a DI box between each of your instruments and the amp. That way, the sound tech make your bass guitar to sound as bass guitar, and your DB to sound as a DB.

IMHO, it is crucial for doubling to send two separate signals to PA.
 
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#26
dreamadream99 said:
I found a free solution I like.

I run the upright through my amp. I run the electric into the effects return.

This works for me because (a) the upright benefits from the amplifier preamp, (b) the electric is active with tone controls, and doesn’t require the amplifier preamp, and (c) the volume knob on the electric mutes it.
Click to expand...

Do you send signal to FOH from the XLR out on your amp? Is it set "pre" or "post"?
 
#27
i found 2 used quality pedal tuners for a price combined cheaper than the Morley box on reverb. they arrived yesterday and they both work. i have rehearsal with the band i double tonight. i'll set it up and report back. i usually switch instruments more during rehearsals these days as we are writing new material and i am still deciding which instrument sounds best....don't worry guys, it's usually the DB :)
 
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#30
Sometimes, trying to save money on an amp with a lesser feature set, only ends costing you money sometime later. If you end up buying two separate DI's, say Countryman 85's ,which are reasonable and great with Piezo pickups for Double Bass

you will have spent $304 on a pair of DI boxes, and at least 50 bucks on a switching system to change between two instruments. So you've layed out around $350.00 that you could have added to the purchase of a new two channel amplifier. I still

contend that there is a workaround with your Acoustic Image amplifier, and you should talk to Rick Jones about the issue. Just my take.
 
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#31
Ric Vice said:
I’d also give Rick Jones at Acoustic Image a shout, to see if there’s something malfunctioning in your amp that’s causing that issue. He may know how to fix it. Just a thought.:whistle:
Click to expand...

just saw this post at the bottom of page one. i agree that there seems to be a problem with the "red" channel 2 button wasn't sure if that was just how it is set up. it always worked that way and never questioned it.

i'll email rick and see what he says.

thanks, Ric!
 
#32
dreamadream99 said:
I found a free solution I like.

I run the upright through my amp. I run the electric into the effects return.

This works for me because (a) the upright benefits from the amplifier preamp, (b) the electric is active with tone controls, and doesn’t require the amplifier preamp, and (c) the volume knob on the electric mutes it.
Click to expand...
dreamadream99 said:
I found a free solution I like.

I run the upright through my amp. I run the electric into the effects return.

This works for me because (a) the upright benefits from the amplifier preamp, (b) the electric is active with tone controls, and doesn’t require the amplifier preamp, and (c) the volume knob on the electric mutes it.
Click to expand...
I did that with my GB Shuttle 3.0 once, but got only one instrument on the built-in DI. So better check that if you need might need to use the DI.

But as the others said, separate DI are recommended. Just look for a high impedance (>= 1 MegOhms) active DI for DB.

Maybe you can use the internal DI of the amp for DB and only need an external one for bass guitar. Would be better for the DB impedance since the external DI impedance and the amp impedance are working in parallel lowering the impedance under the lowest of both. If both are equal the impedance is half as much.
 
#33
DoubleMIDI said:
I did that with my GB Shuttle 3.0 once, but got only one instrument on the built-in DI. So better check that if you need might need to use the DI.
Click to expand...

As stated earlier in this thread, I do consider it an advantage to be able to send separate signal for each instrument to FOH.

If you wanted to send both signals through your amp's internal DI output, you might try to set the switch to "post" position. It's not clear from the diagram in the manual whether it would work that way, though. I might try it with my Shuttle.

DoubleMIDI said:
But as the others said, separate DI are recommended. Just look for a high impedance (>= 1 MegOhms) active DI for DB.
Click to expand...

Yes.

DoubleMIDI said:
Would be better for the DB impedance since the external DI impedance and the amp impedance are working in parallel lowering the impedance under the lowest of both. If both are equal the impedance is half as much.
Click to expand...

Are you sure it works that way? Sounds odd to me...
 
#34
Yes, I’m sure.

You just cannot measure the impedance with a standard multimeter, because there is not only the resistor from hot to ground but also a capacitor in series.

There is a formula for the resistance of two parallel connected resistors. You can find it in any collection of electrotechnical formulas.
A bit hard to keep in mind if you won’t use it regularly, but in case of the same resistance for both the resulting resistance is half of one (like two parallel pipes, doubles the diameter and therefor the flow which halves the resistance).

There is no buffering in a DI box for the incoming signal to the amp out, otherwise, without power, the amp out would get blocked too. So, to avoid that, the DI input as well as the amp input is connected in parallel to the hot signal from the instrument.

I have a cheap active DI box with 1 MegOhms input impedance. I haven’t used it yet on stage, but have measured where the resistor sits on the PCB and planned to replace it by a 10 MegOhms resistor. The following OpAmp has a very high input impedance, to replacing the resistor with a 10 MegOhms type would work.
Might not happen soon (this DI box as well as a cheap passive one sits on the shelf almost unused for several years now), but that is what I want to do if I really need it.

An alternative might be an impedance buffer in front of the DI box. Even a passive DI should work then and you do not have the parallel resistors. The output of the buffer should be strong enough (at least the ones from a HPFpre or FDecks quick’n’dirty should be able to do that) to drive amp and DI box transformer. Would work with an active DI too.
 
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#35
DoubleMIDI said:
There is no buffering in a DI box for the incoming signal to the amp out, otherwise, without power, the amp out would get blocked too. So, to avoid that, the DI input as well as the amp input is connected in parallel to the hot signal from the instrument.
Click to expand...

Do I understand it correctly, that your conclusion applies if the DI box's amp output is not buffered? If this is the case, than Radial PZ DI would be the solution, as it can be set with the amp output buffered...
 
#36
Zbysek said:
Do I understand it correctly, that your conclusion applies if the DI box's amp output is not buffered? If this is the case, than Radial PZ DI would be the solution, as it can be set with the amp output buffered...
Click to expand...
Yes, that is correct.

It might work with a preamp with a DI out because it is basically an impedance buffer, maybe EQ, with a DI following. But with pure DI boxes I haven’t seen any buffering yet (because a power fail cuts the amp too).

If you have a switch for non-buffered DI, you can use the switch in case of a power fail/empty battery to continue playing with your amp alone. But then the DI and amp are again connected in parallel. (But better than no amp at all...)
 
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#37
#39
Ric Vice said:
I’d also give Rick Jones at Acoustic Image a shout, to see if there’s something malfunctioning in your amp that’s causing that issue. He may know how to fix it. Just a thought.:whistle:
Click to expand...

i was in a letter writing mood and wrote to rick and he sent me back some info on cleaning the inputs and how to clean the buttons, as thought, the red ch. 2 button should mute the DI out as well and can be cleaned by popping off the button and spraying it out. wish me luck and thanks for the tip.
 

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#40
My convoluted solution.

Bass Guitar > Boss Tuner > Sansamp Paradriver
Upright > Fishman Pro Plat Bass EQ (old version) > Boss Tuner > Radial DI

Then the signal out from each of those goes into a Boss a/b switcher and into whatevs for amplification.

I'd love a grace two channel preamp or other such device, but this accomplished what I wanted done with less money invested.

note: The Radial DI in the upright signal chain is so that I can still quietly tune, have the fishman be the first thing in the signal chain and still have separate DI's from the board to FOH. If I ever need one DI to FOH, then the DI on whatever amp I'm using will do.
 

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