Simple + Great Sound Live: Handheld Recorder? Which One?

[deathness]

I've been digging through the TB archives this morning and searching out product reviews online. My goal is to find the simplest live recording set-up that also gives good quality sound. Room sound is important to me as this set-up is intended for recording my work in different spaces, spaces chosen for their room reverb, and to do so easily. The handheld recorder route seems the best and easiest way to do that. I currently record with a Tascam 4-track, a couple of Shure mics set deep in the room, and my laptop. The ability to streamline it down to recorder on a mic stand would be awesome.

I play loud music with some dynamic range and a lot of drone to it. I think I have an allergy to fiddling with knobs. 24-bit/96kHz recording to some kind of lossless file format like wave is essential. The X/Y mic configuration seems to do what I'm after, give a stereo full surround sound image.

The Zoom H4 and H2 get a lot of love. Is the sound quality of those units good enough for a live recording of loud music that I want to release? The Tascam DR-100 is also on my radar. What are the next level up from that tier of recorder?

I don't need a lot of features, just good sound at good price that can handle loud music and pick up nuance within a room.

The used prices I see on the H2n are right up my alley, but I'm curious if it's worth it in terms of sound quality to save up for a higher end model? And what would you recommend?

 

[EastCoastThump]

If these are controlled acoustic spaces (no audiences involved), and you have time for plenty of trial-and-error placement you cand get decent results that feature the room sound. Just how decent depends on the genre.

Loud, but no close mics? Do you have a couple specific releases in mind as models for the kind of overall sound you're expecting?

 

[ofajen]

If you want to keep it cheap and simple and still get good representation of both the direct tone and the reflected sound, I'd suggest you get a portable recorder with omnidirectional mike pattern as an option. The Tascam has that along with directional capsules. The Sony PCN-M10 has only omni built in. Or get one of the Zooms bundled with some plug in omni capsules.

The low end will be accurate. The reflected sound will be accurately recorded. However, the compromise is less than complete mono compatibility due to the capsule spacing. Also, if there is ambient noise, omni mikes will capture that accurately, too, which can be a distraction.

Otto

 

[deathness]

Do you have a couple specific releases in mind as models for the kind of overall sound you're expecting?

That is a great question. I actually do not have any specific recordings in mind. I guess I'd be happy with the kind of fidelity on this Phill Niblock recording:

My music is similarly tonal and not structured in a pop kinda way and laden with overtones/harmonics.

 

[deathness]

If you want to keep it cheap and simple and still get good representation of both the direct tone and the reflected sound, I'd suggest you get a portable recorder with omnidirectional mike pattern as an option. The Tascam has that along with directional capsules. The Sony PCN-M10 has only omni built in. Or get one of the Zooms bundled with some plug in omni capsules

Thanks for the rec! And good to know I should be looking at omnidirectional mics. I'm kinda a caveman when it comes to anything tech. As mentioned above in the op, I've been recording on a 4-track cassette recorder. I tried using a audio interface but couldn't get it to work. For someone my age and who works on a computer for a living, I am a thick-skulled Luddite.

Also, if there is ambient noise, omni mikes will capture that accurately, too, which can be a distraction.

That's great. I actually believe the tendency in recorded music to scrub the world from it is insane. Music exists in space and time. What I'm looking to do is be honest about that context in the stuff I'm recording whether it's the sound of the space or a woman walking by pushing a grocery cart or an ambulance with sirens blaring.

 

[ofajen]

That's great. I actually believe the tendency in recorded music to scrub the world from it is insane. Music exists in space and time. What I'm looking to do is be honest about that context in the stuff I'm recording whether it's the sound of the space or a woman walking by pushing a grocery cart or an ambulance with sirens blaring.

If that is what you are after, then a pair of omni mikes is unambiguously what you want. The fancy pants version would be something like the Optimum Stereo Signal (OSS) with a Jecklin or Schneider disc for a versatile result, or full binaural if you are willing to limit to headphone playback. But any pair of omni capsules with spacing anywhere close to the width of your head will sound absolutely spooky when played via phones and excellent through speakers.

Another thing you might find interesting are the Core Sound head worn omni mikes. These are used a lot for stealth recordings, because they can pretty much look like your glasses. Gives a great approximation to what you hear, for better or for worse. However the perspective will be changed when you move your head if you wear them. You could put them on a manikin head.

Otto

 

[deathness]

Great stuff, Otto. Thank you. I think I'm gonna keep it simple to one of the handheld units but make sure it's got a pair of omni mics like the tascam or the sony you mentioned. The core sound mics on a mannequin head would be hilarious though.

Any other good quality handheld recorders besides the tascam, higher-end zooms, and sony I should be looking at?

 

[CryingBass]

Just read a Mix Magazine review on the TASCAM DR-100mkIII linear PCM recorder.
For $200, you can't go wrong I think. Not available yet unfortunately... ( and not
sure if the mkII, readily available, is as-good ) MkIII has a really cool redundant
power feature, if I read it right.

 

[deathness]

Oooooo, I didn't know there was a newer version of the DR-100 on the way. Thanks! Got a bit more research to do, but the Tascam looks to be the lead horse in the race so far.

 

[J Posega]

I got a used zoom h6 for half price... well worth more than that but it's dead simple to use and sounds good with the including XY and MS mics

 

[deathness]

While the feature set of the newer Tascam has me leaning that direction, a good price on H6/5 would be hard to pass up. Looks pretty rugged. @TheEmptyCell what do you use your zoom for? Anything you feel like it comes up short on? The tech on these handheld recorders seems pretty impressive. I'm almost inclined to not believe it, a too-good-to-be-true kinda thing.

If I can roll into a space with just bass, effects+amp, recorder, and mic stand and turn out good quality recordings that would be amazing.

 

[J Posega]

I've used mine for field recordings for (unpublished) podcast/ radio pieces and soundscape work. I hope to start using it to record rehearsals and scratch tracks for studio recording sessions.

The built in mic pres aren't great, but I wouldn't expect them to be for the price.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Preamps in those lower Zoom models are not very good. Sonic quality of the Zoom F8 is superb. Zoom just came out with a F4, which might be up Your alley.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I guess I'd be happy with the kind of fidelity on this Phill Niblock recording:

My music is similarly tonal and not structured in a pop kinda way and laden with overtones/harmonics.

I'm not very familiar w/ Niblock's recording process, but IIRC Protools and close mics account for a lot of the defined space he's able to create for voices in his layered compositions. In an acoustically well-designed performance hall, you might get decent results w/ enough trial-and-error, but getting a recording that good will not be simple or accidental.

It may be that your desire for "simplest possible" will wrestle with your desire for that level of quality. If you don't have a fair bit of recording experience, another route would be to hire out tracking to someone who has gear and deep experience with orchestral live-to-two-track recording.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I've owned a Yamaha that's no longer made that I liked cuz it was the size of a cigarette lighter, and got the job done - and a ZOOM that I hated, but to be honest I don't remember why . I also had the ZOOM video piece of sheit that busted, cost me $150 to have fixed, and then busted again the next time I used it. I'm a fan of ZOOM's effects, but their audio/visual stuff to me seems like they're held together with spit.

A few years back I wanted to do some multi-track recording while on vacation, and I picked myself up a BOSS micro BR. I recorded one song with it on vacation, this (using a ubass, also) :



And I have since been using it for all my live rehearsal recordings. I love it, and comes with lots more bells, whistles and capabilities than than the ZOOMs. Has taken a beating too, and keeps on ticking.

 

[ofajen]

That Boss unit looks great! I can't seem to find a spec as to whether the mikes are omni or directional, though I assume probably omni, since they are fixed and spaced.

I could see tracking ideas on that, plus it would be great to record remotely, or when I want to track my grand piano, which is, sadly, too far from the studio gear.

Otto

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

One big consideration is mic placement. Your handheld really needs a standard mic jack and a mic stand for the "best" sound. An x/y stereo mic is not "surround sound" as you mentioned; it's pretty much what is projected in front of the mic. Setting the handheld recorder on the floor is not likely to pick up note bloom and room noise. Either the recorder or a separate stereo mic should be placed exactly where the best sound occurs.

For example, in the video below I used a stereo mic in front of the electric duo and about 3 feet off the floor. Picked up plenty of nuance! If you're recording a bigger band, you will need to move the mic further away from the band in order to capture the wider field of sound. Sometimes this will capture too much room noise, such as audience chatter, glasses clinking, etc. during quieter parts of a song. There are many many tradeoffs/considerations for recording, but mic placement is just as important (if not more important!) than the quality of your gear.

 

[DWBass]

I love my Zoom H2.

 

[deathness]

Preamps in those lower Zoom models are not very good. Sonic quality of the Zoom F8 is superb. Zoom just came out with a F4, which might be up Your alley.

I have a 4-track and a couple of mics already. Not looking for an interface which would essentially be the same bulk as my current set-up. I'm interested if I can strip it down to just a recorder in one unit.

 

[deathness]

I'm not very familiar w/ Niblock's recording process, but IIRC Protools and close mics account for a lot of the defined space he's able to create for voices in his layered compositions. In an acoustically well-designed performance hall, you might get decent results w/ enough trial-and-error, but getting a recording that good will not be simple or accidental

Hahaha, yeah I was probably shooting for the moon when mentioning the Niblock recording. I'm a new convert to his music and it's true that in that one I linked, my music shares a similar range and drone. I don't need that level of fidelity. I try not to let perfection be the enemy of good.

And absolutely yes: mic placement is key. When I record now, I spend a lot of time moving the mics around.

It may be that your desire for "simplest possible" will wrestle with your desire for that level of quality. If you don't have a fair bit of recording experience, another route would be to hire out tracking to someone who has gear and deep experience with orchestral live-to-two-track recording.

Hear it. I kinda figured that the tech was still in the tradeoff zone. Eh, I'm tryna figure out a solution that's DIY. I don't mind experimenting and working at it to get it right. My interest in this route is to be able to on-the-spot record in an interesting space as I come across them. If all I have to worry about is amp and mic/handheld recorder placement, that would be aces.