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Singing over complicated basslines
- Thread starter David Sutkin
- Start date
I know what you mean! For me, if I learn the bassline and the vocals together at the same time, it goes pretty smoothly. If I have to ADD vocals to a bassline I've already been playing, it does not go smoothly at all!
I was watching a clip on YouTube with John Entwistle a couple of months ago.
He said unless you are a bass player that sings lead like Paul McCartney or Sting, then you really don't get noticed in a band.
In my old covers band I sang 2-3 songs, but in my current band singer and drummer do the lead vox and myself and guitarist do BV's
He said unless you are a bass player that sings lead like Paul McCartney or Sting, then you really don't get noticed in a band.
In my old covers band I sang 2-3 songs, but in my current band singer and drummer do the lead vox and myself and guitarist do BV's
Do the 'Contemporary Vocalist Course' by Jeannie Deva. That should clear up any problems related to singing, real pronto.
I started out playing bass in 1967, but had been singing in school and church choirs since the age of eight! Nevertheless, when I started playing bass singing anything but the occasional 'Ooh/Ahh' backup was out of the question. Then, a band I was in found itself with no lead vocalist, and my bandmates convinced me to give it a shot. I had to simplify a lot of bass lines to make it work, but ended up fronting that band for three years! Then, the proverbial kiss of death: A guitarist friend convinced me to 'convert' to full-time lead vocals, which I did for the next seven years! HUGE mistake!! My bass playing deteriorated horribly, and by the time I got back to it, it was almost like starting over!! Only after countless hours of practice and countless blisters did I find my way back to 'respectable/adequate!' I can coordinate vocals & bass a bit better now, but there are still a ton of tunes that I watch others perform, in awe of their ability to disconnect playing and singing (or coordinate them, depending on how you look at it). There are little things you can do (e.g. "I have to play the X note on this particular syllable!", etc., etc.) but I'm convinced that some people are simply born with the ability to musically 'walk and chew gum!' Sadly, I'm not one of them! 
the one thing I`ve found that helps me learn to sing and play at the same time; (more than just doing it a lot) is starting slowly and work on every line/phrase you struggle with, playing at the same time. And you have to play (and sing) it reeeeeallly slow at first and repeat it until you`ve got it. then gradually increase tempo until you can to do it in normal tempo.. then learn to do it as part of the verse... this is how I learn to play complicated stuff on bass/guitar as well.. You just have to treat the art of singing and playing at the same time as a skill to itself, that you have to practice and apply the work in order to master...
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The first big challenge for me was The Police's 'I Can't Losing You', particularly the interlude with the vocal over the syncopated arpeggios. That was the early '80s, did it 6 nights a week for 2 years, and it all became second nature. Now I can sing and play most tunes easily, often improvising harmonies on the fly. Practice, Practice, Practice.
Write out everything in musical notation or tab and then break the words down into individual syllables, then counting at first slowly, go through each bar playing notes and hitting consonants or whatever. Repeat enough that you are able to remember it. (this is the same while learning a drum pattern where the rhythm doesn’t immediately click. What you are trying to develop is coordination between voice and limbs just as you would look to co-ordinate feet and hands as a drummer.
That gets you to a point where you can basically reproduce the song. The next stage is to do it enough that the bass becomes automatic. It’s not a debate.. the vocal comes first. If you listen back to a live recording after this work prob the bass will not groove as well as it does in the studio, but you should be able to get to a point where you can freely time your vocal.
It’s basically a matter of a lot of practice and after that confidence. The mechanics of learning it are simple.
That gets you to a point where you can basically reproduce the song. The next stage is to do it enough that the bass becomes automatic. It’s not a debate.. the vocal comes first. If you listen back to a live recording after this work prob the bass will not groove as well as it does in the studio, but you should be able to get to a point where you can freely time your vocal.
It’s basically a matter of a lot of practice and after that confidence. The mechanics of learning it are simple.
I think it was Vic Wooten who has an instructional teaching how to do this. Maybe his was actually to keep time with a metronome, but it works for both! What you do is start by playing a bass line along with a metronome and then just start talking, have a conversation with someone, "Hey, what's for dinner?" or whatever... Once you can get your brain/ fingers to hit the right notes in time it sort of becomes easy... But learning a new song always takes practice. +1 here for practice, practice, practice and incorporate talking or humming, etc.
I've been singing and playing bass for probably close to 25 years now, so it's virtually second nature to me. Of course there are some bass lines that I still find it impossible to sing over, but there are a few bits of advice I'd give that I think have helped me to pretty much be able to sing and play most lines I need to without much extra effort.
1) Learn to play drums. Not only invaluable when it comes to timekeeping, but because you're conditioning your body and your brain to do so many different, often disparate things (if that makes sense), I've found it really helps when it comes to singing and playing. Oh, and by the way, I also used to sing and play drums at the same time.
2) Learn and memorise the lyrics to the song first, before attempting the bass line. I find that not having to really think about the lyrics is a massive boon. After all, the bass is the hard part to pull off, realistically speaking. Singing is just talking in different pitches really.
3) Bit hard to explain this, but separate the bass line and the melody of the song in your head, before you attempt to play it. Like I say, hard to explain but it works for me.
4) Don't be slavish to the bass line unless you really have to be. If needs be, simplify it where you need to. Unless you're in a tribute band, you don't need to play a bass line note for note or verbatim (bar something really specific and integral to the song... a good example being something like Day Tripper by the Beatles) so, if you can, dumb it down. Someone cited Spirits in the Material World by the Police earlier in this thread. Great bass line, but listen to what Sting plays when he does it live. It's drastically trimmed so it's probably about half as busy as the studio version.
5) Play some air bass! Sounds stupid, but before you even play a note on the bass, see if you can co-ordinate your theoretical finger movements for the bass line while singing. Or put more simply, try and replicate the rhythm of the bass line with your hands while vocalising. If you can do that, actually playing the bass and singing should be no issue.
Horses for courses, these tips won't work for everyone. But they've worked for me, and even to this day if there's a fairly complex line I need to sing over, I still return to some of them.
Hope this is of some use to someone out there!
1) Learn to play drums. Not only invaluable when it comes to timekeeping, but because you're conditioning your body and your brain to do so many different, often disparate things (if that makes sense), I've found it really helps when it comes to singing and playing. Oh, and by the way, I also used to sing and play drums at the same time.
2) Learn and memorise the lyrics to the song first, before attempting the bass line. I find that not having to really think about the lyrics is a massive boon. After all, the bass is the hard part to pull off, realistically speaking. Singing is just talking in different pitches really.
3) Bit hard to explain this, but separate the bass line and the melody of the song in your head, before you attempt to play it. Like I say, hard to explain but it works for me.
4) Don't be slavish to the bass line unless you really have to be. If needs be, simplify it where you need to. Unless you're in a tribute band, you don't need to play a bass line note for note or verbatim (bar something really specific and integral to the song... a good example being something like Day Tripper by the Beatles) so, if you can, dumb it down. Someone cited Spirits in the Material World by the Police earlier in this thread. Great bass line, but listen to what Sting plays when he does it live. It's drastically trimmed so it's probably about half as busy as the studio version.
5) Play some air bass! Sounds stupid, but before you even play a note on the bass, see if you can co-ordinate your theoretical finger movements for the bass line while singing. Or put more simply, try and replicate the rhythm of the bass line with your hands while vocalising. If you can do that, actually playing the bass and singing should be no issue.
Horses for courses, these tips won't work for everyone. But they've worked for me, and even to this day if there's a fairly complex line I need to sing over, I still return to some of them.
Hope this is of some use to someone out there!
If l Told You that, lots of Practice of Playing & Singing & Performing, yes it's Very Important. But in my Case, God Blessed me with an Exceptional Ear. And Timing and Tempo(internal clock). Music has Come Easy. I Can't Help that, l play and Perform over Thirty Instruments at one time, but now l just play Bass, but even More So, Sing my Ass-Off. At 63yrs. Of Age, still Can Belt a Tune and Play a Really hard Bass line at the Same time. Yes, Practice tI'll it's a Habit. John.
I know bass players half my age that practice one-tenth of what do, yet can tear through a complicated line while singing. Years have taught me that some get it naturally, and some ( like me) don't. I'm always envious and humbled by you that CAN do it. Jerks! 
You can sing when you get to the point that your don't have to think about your bass lines. With a bass it is like a lead guitarist singing over their solos. I played classis rock for years and couldn't sing parts. Then I did a trio with way more complicated bass lines. We did so many gigs that the bass line were 2nd thought. At that point singing lead or harmonies came easy. Hang in there and just try.
Good post, I looked up a live version and he simplifies it .. I suppose it goes without saying that its multitracked
There are many good, helpful comments on the thread -- I suggest you read them and follow the suggestions. I can sing and play certain tricky songs (e.g., Gimme Three Steps, Suzie Q, Brown-Eyed Girl, etc.), but others are notorious mental blocks. For example, I have real trouble singing simple background parts on I Can't Help Myself, even though the bass part is just the same simple riff throughout. But overall, the suggestions in the thread are really good. E.g., you must learn both parts cold separately, to the point where you don't have to think about at least one of them. Once you're to that point, I find it helpful to slow the song sown in an audio editor, and really study where the melody notes fit between the bass notes. Sometimes I'll start by just trying to sing certain notes in the melody, then adding in the rest as I get more comfortable with whatever the counterpoint happens to be. Eventually, each song just becomes second nature. Finally, keep in mind that, while guys like Sting, McCartney, Squire, etc. are/were ridiculously talented, they are playing music that they wrote. The music is designed for how their brains tick. When you're covering tunes, you have to adjust your brain to dozens of different pop music geniuses, all with different rhythmic idiosyncrasies. And that just ain't easy.
I'm just gonna throw out there that it somewhat depends what your main instrument is. If approaching it as a vocalist, then bass is a backing vox without the complication of lyrics. I'm sure plenty of you that write your own music have heard the bass and guitar or guitar and drums together as inked on paper/tabbed while relearning it outside of the improv stage. so its not that far out.
Me too! Ha. My voice is the worst. Years ago, we lost our singer. I figured I'd give it a shot. Stepped up to the mic to sing and the band stopped playing behind me. I turned to the drummer and was like "what?". He said "you're not gonna keep doing that are you?".
Similar situation for me. I love to sing, but my bandmates don't really want to hear me.
So I pretty much don't, just BV for two tunes. And that is still difficult, but I'm still practicing - it does get easier with (properly done) repetition. 
In my band I'm taking both bass and lead vocals. At first, I felt the same way as you. I would look in awe at people like Lemmy Kilmister, Geddy Lee, and especially Mark King (bloody beast that man!). But in the end, I refuse to dumb down a bass line just to make it easier to sing over, I want the bass to be as simple or difficult as it's meant to be. My approach to playing and singing is to do it song by song, rather than saying playing/singing one song and thinking I can do it. I started with simple stuff like The Beatles (McCartney's bass lines are generally not hard to sing over), and then I moved on to more complicated stuff, like Chili Peppers and Black Sabbath.
The best way to do it for me is to learn the bass line until I can play it without thinking, and learn the vocal part until it's second nature. After that, practice doing both together REALLY slowly (I'm talking 40 BPM for some really difficult songs). I like to do it without a metronome so that I speed up naturally, but to each their own. It's the classic "to play fast, you must play slow" sort of deal. For me the best practice songs are:
Easy:
Come Together - The Beatles
Message In A Bottle - The Police
Dazed And Confused - Led Zeppelin
Moderate:
Give It Away - Red Hot Chili Peppers
Number Of The Beast - Iron Maiden
Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
Hard:
Minority - Green Day (Easy song to play, but hard to play while singing. For me, anyways.)
Panic Attack - Dream Theater
The Punk And The Godfather - The Who
You may disagree with this list, it's just my experience.
The best way to do it for me is to learn the bass line until I can play it without thinking, and learn the vocal part until it's second nature. After that, practice doing both together REALLY slowly (I'm talking 40 BPM for some really difficult songs). I like to do it without a metronome so that I speed up naturally, but to each their own. It's the classic "to play fast, you must play slow" sort of deal. For me the best practice songs are:
Easy:
Come Together - The Beatles
Message In A Bottle - The Police
Dazed And Confused - Led Zeppelin
Moderate:
Give It Away - Red Hot Chili Peppers
Number Of The Beast - Iron Maiden
Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
Hard:
Minority - Green Day (Easy song to play, but hard to play while singing. For me, anyways.)
Panic Attack - Dream Theater
The Punk And The Godfather - The Who
You may disagree with this list, it's just my experience.
Some more complicated bass parts + vocals can and do take hours to master. I believe it came easier to me because I was a singer first - then after being comfortable and more experienced with that, (about 4 years),I started playing bass. Most people tackle it the other way 'round.....I think that must be harder. What worked for me (retired now) - learn the bass part so well, that your hands are almost 'on auto'. Learn the lyrics inside-out, so they flow too....this way, there are no hurdles to worry about that freeze your brain. HOWEVER, Esperanza is clearly an awesome talent (and was at 5 years old) - I've never attempted playing/singing her style of jazz; out of my league!
That's about it - you put in the hours....repetition, repetition.... until your brain 'gets it'. Then it's fun and so worth the slog.For me, it took a *plethora* of hours! I used to play in a YES tribute band (mostly their 70's material). Prior to putting that band together, I had been playing Yes material on my bass for decades and I knew the bass material very well. But in the YES tribute band, I not only played bass, but I forced myself to learn to sing Chris Squire's very odd, contrapuntal vocal harmony parts. Oh man.....that guy is all over the place with his vocal harmonies! It took me hours and hours and hours (actually months) to nail it. There was no easy "short cut" available. I just had to put in the time to do it. But since I'm the one who put that band together, I felt that I needed to step up and learn my vocal parts to pay correct tribute to the music. After months of practicing by myself, I finally got to where the vocal parts became programmed in my mind to match playing the notes on my bass, kinda like wearing down a path in my neurons. No one else forced me to do this. I chose to do it. And in the end, it was all worth it to me because I had a blast performing that music in that band!
