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Singing over complicated basslines

#81
For me, it depends on what the vocal melody is doing and what the bass is doing. Sometimes singing and playing works, and sometimes it doesn't, and it seems to be on a case-by-case basis.

Back when I was in high school and not even playing bass yet, I played jazz baritone saxophone. My teacher had his own combo and I was sitting in one night. It was a small restaurant and we were set up in the front area by the door. During someone's solo section, some of the drummer's buddies were walking out the door. The drummer, without missing a single phrase, B-section, ghosting on the snare, moving to the swish cymbal, without breaking musical stride whatsoever, held a 60-second long conversation with the friends, while looking them in the eye over his shoulder. I was stunned. The guy doesn't even chew his gum at the same tempo as the song he's keeping time for. What an incredible player in general.
 
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#85
Spalding is a female. With simultaneous capacity. The ones that stumps me are those who can sing in 4/4 and play 5/4 simultaneously. John Wetton of King Crimson, "Easy Money" doesn't happen much in the bass part until the second verse comes around:



Progressive cult (very underground to say the least) band EGG from the 1970-73 had this tune going on all of the time in 9/8 and 7/8 interchangeably and bassist singing on top over it. This is a studio recording of it though, not live, but mr Montgomery bass/vocalist could cut it. He wrote it. But no singing in other time than the tune was in, and bass playing...



They were ahead of their time. Managed to sound like a cd-player played a bad CD in the 80s. It sounds like those CD's skipping.... really inventive. They knew it would become something a decade later or so... ;)

Prog prog and then some more prog...

To me the complicated singing...I mean...it is more hard to sing something very easy over a complicated bass line, and sing some complicated stuff over a over simple bass line. If both are equally as complicated or simply it's just to tag along to it.
 
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#86
If I know I'm going to be singing it, I do my best to learn singing and playing at the same time. If I learn bass first and then add singing, it's harder for me.. Getting the bass playing without thinking is the goal while I'm singing. Some songs I need to dumb down while singing. I could either play the complex bass line, or sing,but not both.
 
#88
Scottkarch said:
Some songs I need to dumb down while singing.
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Don't worry, brother... the live version is close, but not the same as the product coming out of the studio... high level pros do it all the time... if you have a good ear for bass, and know the songs down pat, you'll know when a 'subtle' riff is left out, or when one is added...

Geddy did it all the time, I'm assuming to make the songs more interesting, displaying his awesomeness... During live performances, I'd expect a certain phrasing, and he would present with something even cooler... I did my best to let him know that it wasn't on the studio version... still waiting for him to get back with me...

... most of the audience only cares that it sounds good...

... it's a different story if most of your audience consists of TB members, though.
 
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#89
Tommyc said:
OK sure anybody can be Mozart if their old man was Leopold. Except that Leopold only ever had two students who ever showed that kind of talent. I don't know why talent has become such a dirty word. Work has become exalted as a kind of godliness that is morally superior to having a gift. There are things that work cannot overcome and that is not a failure or a vice. Everybody has gifts and proclivities, some of which we don't even know about because we've never been directed to those areas. You will never be able to discern as a human, newspaper sized print from a mile away because you weren't born with the eyes of an eagle.
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Honch said:
Spalding is a female. With simultaneous capacity. The ones that stumps me are those who can sing in 4/4 and play 5/4 simultaneously. John Wetton of King Crimson, "Easy Money" doesn't happen much in the bass part until the second verse comes around:



Progressive cult (very underground to say the least) band EGG from the 1970-73 had this tune going on all of the time in 9/8 and 7/8 interchangeably and bassist singing on top over it. This is a studio recording of it though, not live, but mr Montgomery bass/vocalist could cut it. He wrote it. But no singing in other time than the tune was in, and bass playing...



They were ahead of their time. Managed to sound like a cd-player played a bad CD in the 80s. It sounds like those CD's skipping.... really inventive. They knew it would become something a decade later or so... ;)

Prog prog and then some more prog...

To me the complicated singing...I mean...it is more hard to sing something very easy over a complicated bass line, and sing some complicated stuff over a over simple bass line. If both are equally as complicated or simply it's just to tag along to it.
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@Honch
Your examples are great to demonstrate a variation on this thread's theme.

For my experience it's alway 'easier' or more intuitive if the parts flow naturally across the rythym as in Easy Money vs the less 'natural' feeling Contra Song.

Each has odd timing. One feels like stones skipping across water at different rythyms, the other feels like looking through a moving picket fence with random uprights missing...if that makes any sense.

The matter of how jarring it feels makes a big difference for me.
Easy Money feels easy to play and sing.
Contra Song does not.
 
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#91
I can sing. I can play guitar and sing. I can play banjo and sing. I can fake keys and sing. I can play percussion and sing easiest of all.

I have a lot of trouble playing decent bass while singing. I can handle basic backup vocals and harmonizations if I work at it. But that's about it.
 
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#93
40Hz said:
I can sing. I can play guitar and sing. I can play banjo and sing. I can fake keys and sing. I can play percussion and sing easiest of all.

I have a lot of trouble playing decent bass while singing. I can handle basic backup vocals and harmonizations if I work at it. But that's about it.
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That appears to be a continuously re-occurring theme in this thread ... makes me feel better actually!
 
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#94
David Sutkin said:
Have you read "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell?
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Yes I have. He cites in support of his 10,000 hour rule many examples of success including the Beatles. However as many social scientists have pointed out there is a hole in his rule. he never cites nor accounts for the accomplished who haven't done what they're known for, for 10,000 hours. I prefer to talk about things I know so in the case of musicians, the great classical guitarist Andres Segovia's two greatest pupils Australian, John Williams and American, Christopher Parkening arrived at his doorstep well short of 10,000 hours of practice under their belts. Williams was 10 and arguably more technically advanced than Segovia himself. Williams began at 4 under his father's direction who was also a guitarist but later said he only practiced one half hour a day until he was 11. Parkening started later at 10 but performed Bach's Chaconne in a recital along with 10 other pieces a year later at 11. I remember reading a copy of the newspaper article commenting on the assuredness and maturity he played with. He was invited to Segovia's academy at 15. Sports is another thing. Maybe you've heard the old saw, "if you want to win a gold medal in the Olympics pick your parents carefully." I know cycling. I've got my 10,000 hours in and am finishing my 37th consecutive year of logging 5000 miles or more. I raced up to category 3 USCF. I always wanted to be able to break an hour for the 40km time trial. Couldn't do it. It wasn't simply a wish. It was work. Still couldn't do it. Then I read a bit ago about Tyler Hamilton, teammate of the disgraced Lance Armstrong and himself disgraced as a doper. But this was pertaining to when he was a youngster. He was asked to participate in a club race and held his own easily against far more experienced and well trained riders. It was suggested he enter a time trial whose length i don't recall. He won it averaging about 28 miles per hour. There are seasoned professional cyclists who would be hard pressed to do that but this kid had a gift. I believe one has to work. One has to work intelligently and diligently with the best guidance but that does not erase talent as a fact.
 
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#97
ToddOfThunder said:
Doesn't he sing, play bass and play keyboard with his feet at the same time? I could swear I've seen it?!?
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IMG_2956.JPG
 
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