Slots in zero fret

[TortCult]

My new Hofner Verythin has a zero fret and while changing the strings I noticed that they filed grooves in the fret instead of levelling the whole fret to the appropriate level.
The strings still sit a bit high (especially the E) and I wonder whether I should just file the grooves lower or file the whole fret down. Does it even matter? Thanks in advance!

 

[bdplaid]

Sandberg uses a zero fret and they file the fret to set the string height at the nut. It works fine.

 

[TortCult]

Cool, definitely easier than filing the whole thing down and bringing it back to shine!

 

[Turnaround]

I find it just a bit bizarre to install a zero fret and then file slots into it. There must be a reason of which I am unaware. Someone enlighten me please.

 

[TortCult]

I find it just a bit bizarre to install a zero fret and then file slots into it. There must be a reason of which I am unaware. Someone enlighten me please.

Sandberg actually also does this as I've read today and their basses are rather expensive. My guess is, it's a lot easier to get the depth just right for each string that way, but then why not just use a regular nut... not sure.

 

[MattZilla]

Do what you want, it’s your bass.

I’d get that zero fret done correctly, either half-arsed with my own two hands or just paying a professional (who’d probably have to be more specialized & popular with bluegrass players- banjo, mandolin- for me to actually have confidence that they know know what they’re doing).

 

[bdplaid]

Sandberg actually also does this as I've read today and their basses are rather expensive. My guess is, it's a lot easier to get the depth just right for each string that way, but then why not just use a regular nut... not sure.

My suspicion is that Sandberg thinks the zero fret will make open strings sound more like fretted strings, because they are.

I myself went through an attitude adjustment getting used to a string -height -adjusted zero fret, but it works fine.

Sandberg does a few things differently than others, and in sum it all works really well.

 

[Turnaround]

My suspicion is that Sandberg thinks the zero fret will make open strings sound more like fretted strings, because they are.

I myself went through an attitude adjustment getting used to a string -height -adjusted zero fret, but it works fine.

Sandberg does a few things differently than others, and in sum it all works really well.

I have no problem with a zero fret. In fact my Elrick Evolution has a zero fret. What I don't get is why one would file string slots in it. If the zero fret is the same size as the other frets it's at a perfect height. So why put in an oversized zero fret then file notches in it? To me that's just extra work with zero gain.

 

[JKaftertwoxans]

My new Hofner Verythin has a zero fret and while changing the strings I noticed that they filed grooves in the fret instead of levelling the whole fret to the appropriate level.
The strings still sit a bit high (especially the E) and I wonder whether I should just file the grooves lower or file the whole fret down. Does it even matter? Thanks in advance!

The only advantage recrowning the crown on the zero fret properly will offer over the slotted micro nut is that a skilled hand will be able to intonate your first 5 or so frets by adjusting the angle of the crown and offer precise intonation similar to those fancy staggered nuts.

 

[TortCult]

The only advantage recrowning the crown on the zero fret properly will offer over the slotted micro nut is that a skilled hand will be able to intonate your first 5 or so frets by adjusting the angle of the crown and offer precise intonation similar to those fancy staggered nuts.

Didn't know those existed, pretty cool.

Turned out the slots of the A and D-string where already sufficiently deep, so I only filed the E and G-slots with improvised files (long, rounded object + sandpaper) and it turned out pretty well.

 

[RSBBass]

The width of a fret wire doesn't allow much room for adjustment. I suspect on the OP's bass the zero fret was sitting high and rather than re-install it or crown it the filed notches. A cheap fix, not a feature.

 

[GretschWretch]

Zero frets have to sit a little bit high or the open strings won't clear the other frets. I just looked at my six short-scale hollow-bodies, made in America, Italy, and Japan. Five of them have zero frets.

If you want to be offended by something, be offended by this. Can you imagine trying to change strings quickly with this set-up?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I find it just a bit bizarre to install a zero fret and then file slots into it. There must be a reason of which I am unaware. Someone enlighten me please.

It's just laziness. Keeping with the same technique that they use for a normal nut, using fret files. There's nothing functionally wrong with a notched zero fret, as long as the notches are filed correctly to the right height and shape.

 

[vaesto]

Sandberg uses a zero fret and they file the fret to set the string height at the nut. It works fine.

Actually Sandberg has a zero fret AND the nut behind. Zero fret sets the height, the nut has slots for string spacing. Normally these slots are cut DEEPER than the zero fret. That's how it should work.

We can also have a nut made of some metal, which could pretty much look like a "zero fret with grooves". Also we can have heavily worn zero fret, which again looks like "zero fret with grooves".

Some people set the zero fret height equal with the other frets, some make it a bit higher (like the regular nut). I would make it a bit over the rest of frets, though.

 

[bdplaid]

Sintoms Zero Fret - SS - without Tang - Arc

 

[Turnaround]

Zero frets have to sit a little bit high or the open strings won't clear the other frets.

Actually, no. Think about when you fret at the first fret - it doesn't have to be any higher than the other frets to clear them. Neither does the zero fret need to be higher than the others.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Actually, no. Think about when you fret at the first fret - it doesn't have to be any higher than the other frets to clear them. Neither does the zero fret need to be higher than the others.

We've had this debate before, Richard.....I'll repost my explanation on why I cut Zero frets to 0.010" taller than the other frets:

From many years of building basses with zero frets, I've found that trimming the zero fret to about 0.010" above the other frets works best. It's the same as you'd cut the slots in a conventional nut. And that number works for any gauge or string type. If you take it lower than 0.010", the "buzz threshold" on the first fret is lower. You would have to leave the overall action higher to avoid buzzing against the first fret when playing the open note. Leaving the zero fret higher than 0.010" makes the first position feel stiffer when pushing the string down.

On any thread about zero frets, someone will jump in and argue that the zero fret should be exactly level with the other frets. After all, it's just another fret, right? Why should it need to be higher? And, likewise, why should the bottoms of the conventional nut slots be higher than the other frets?

The reason is because of the curvature of the neck. To get the lowest possible action without buzzing, the neck needs to have a slight relief curve. With the strings under tension, the truss rod is adjusted to allow the neck to bend into this slight upward curve. The ideal shape for this relief curve isn't a constant curve; it's actually one quarter of a long shallow ellipse. This ideal curve is nearly flat at the heel, and the radius gets smaller as it gets closer to the nut. It curves up at an increasing rate as it gets closer to the nut. Necks are designed to do that. Under string tension, as you loosen the truss rod, the neck should form into that curve.

The problem is that most necks flare out and get thicker right around the nut area, to transition in shape to the headstock. The wood is quite a bit stiffer right there between the nut and the 1st fret. If the nut or zero fret were cut exactly level with the other frets, when the neck pulls up into that relief curve, that area around the nut won't bend as much. The relief curve would have a slight kink in it, effectively a lump at the first fret.

So, that's why the nut or zero fret is cut slightly higher than the other frets. It mechanically creates that tail end of the relief curve to compensate for the neck being too stiff in that area.​

 

[Turnaround]

We've had this debate before, Richard.....I'll repost my explanation on why I cut Zero frets to 0.010" taller than the other frets:

From many years of building basses with zero frets, I've found that trimming the zero fret to about 0.010" above the other frets works best. It's the same as you'd cut the slots in a conventional nut. And that number works for any gauge or string type. If you take it lower than 0.010", the "buzz threshold" on the first fret is lower. You would have to leave the overall action higher to avoid buzzing against the first fret when playing the open note. Leaving the zero fret higher than 0.010" makes the first position feel stiffer when pushing the string down.

On any thread about zero frets, someone will jump in and argue that the zero fret should be exactly level with the other frets. After all, it's just another fret, right? Why should it need to be higher? And, likewise, why should the bottoms of the conventional nut slots be higher than the other frets?

The reason is because of the curvature of the neck. To get the lowest possible action without buzzing, the neck needs to have a slight relief curve. With the strings under tension, the truss rod is adjusted to allow the neck to bend into this slight upward curve. The ideal shape for this relief curve isn't a constant curve; it's actually one quarter of a long shallow ellipse. This ideal curve is nearly flat at the heel, and the radius gets smaller as it gets closer to the nut. It curves up at an increasing rate as it gets closer to the nut. Necks are designed to do that. Under string tension, as you loosen the truss rod, the neck should form into that curve.

The problem is that most necks flare out and get thicker right around the nut area, to transition in shape to the headstock. The wood is quite a bit stiffer right there between the nut and the 1st fret. If the nut or zero fret were cut exactly level with the other frets, when the neck pulls up into that relief curve, that area around the nut won't bend as much. The relief curve would have a slight kink in it, effectively a lump at the first fret.

So, that's why the nut or zero fret is cut slightly higher than the other frets. It mechanically creates that tail end of the relief curve to compensate for the neck being too stiff in that area.​

Yes Bruce, I understand that. In fact if you look at my analysis of relief it highlights this very issue. And I like your approach, though for myself I would choose less that .010", but that's in good part because of how I play.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/neck-relief.1467202/

I think my point was that so often we see nuts cut too high and some of the guidelines for the height seem to be based on an unquestioned convention. If the neck formed an even curve that was optimized for vibrating string clearance, there would be no need for the zero fret to be higher than any other fret. But as with so many other transitions from the theoretical to the real world some compromises are necessary. And as you point out, the idea of putting in a larger fret then filing notches into it is a "lazy" approach. It's effective in mechanical terms and perhaps even in economical terms, and perhaps good enough is in fact good enough. But when I see this laziness it brings me to question what other easy-way-outs were taken. That I find irksome.

 

[202dy]

If scale length is calculated to the kerf of the zero fret, a notched fret would make setting intonation almost impossible. The fret should be crowned and polished so that the string is stopped at top dead center.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

If scale length is calculated to the kerf of the zero fret, a notched fret would make setting intonation almost impossible. The fret should be crowned and polished so that the string is stopped at top dead center.

Yes, that's true. If you file notches into a zero fret, and they are deeper than 0.005" or so, then you will be moving the front edge of the notch forward of the "0" line. Which will make the first few notes a little flat. To correct for that, you should crown the front side of the zero fret to move those edges back. Or, better yet, file the whole top of the fret down until the notches just disappear, then crown it as normal.

There's nothing wrong with using that as your process for setting the height of the zero fret: File notches at the string locations using nut files, getting the height of the notches right. Then, file the top of the zero fret down to match the bottoms of those notches. Then crown and polish.

But, if you stop after filing the notches, leaving them there, the intonation may be slightly off.