small and light cab to pair with trace elliot elf head + elf 1x10?

[bassdot]

first of all excuse me for being completely clueless about the amp world. ive no clue how any of this works.

ive used my elf top + 1x10 cab for a few small gigs and ive been very satisfied with it, but now i need an amp for a bigger and louder band. i was kind of hoping stacking another 1x10 cab on top of what i already have will do the trick? is this likely? our drummers play quite loud from time to time.

and if this is likely, can i link any 1x10 cab to my current setup?

and for which cabs, ive been looking on thomann and i saw the warwick pro 10/4. thoughts on that as an option?

 

[SteveCS]

warwick pro 10/4. thoughts on that as an option?

The Warwick Pro 10/4 is a 4-Ohm cab. Your ELF can only go to 4 Ohms, so if you use your existing 8-Ohm cab at the same time you will probably fry the amp*. You need to stick to another 8-Ohm cab, say another Trace ELF 1*10 or the Warwick Gnome 10/8. Better still might be a single 4-Ohm 4x10


*Total load will be 1/ ((1/4)+(1/8)) = 2.67 Ohms

 

[bassdot]

ah i see, thank you! thats very good to know indeed.

sadly i think a 4x10 will be too unwieldy. i dont drive so i need to lug this stuff around on public transport and on foot. with seperate cabs i can just do it in 2 trips

so the 200w elf top with 2 1x10 8ohms could potentially be a little meager since youre suggesting the 4ohm 4x10?

would could i combine an 8ohm 2x8 with my 1x10? is that likely better?

 

[SteveCS]

...

would could i combine an 8ohm 2x8 with my 1x10? is that likely better?

You would have to audition the cabs in combination to work that out for yourself. Generally speaking, multiple cabs having the same characteristics is preferrable to mixing and matching - the 1 x 10" + 2 x 8" combination might have the potential to get a bit louder (slightly more cone area) than 2 identical 10" cabs, but 2-off 1 x 10" is more likely to sound 'better' because they are less likely to interfere wtih each other in unpredictable ways. Of course there are no 'rules' for this sort of thing (again you need to try them out for yourself), but anecdotally there is probably more chance of the 1 x 10" + 2 x 8" combination sounding bad or being problematic than sounding well. Safest bet, IMHO, would be an ELF 1x10" extension cab.

With that said, MORE is always the right answer in TALKBass land Have you thought about a pair of 8-Ohm 1x12" - it would have almost 50% more cone than 2 10s so could convert your 200W into a significant amount of air movement?

 

[RicoTheBassMan]

The Warwick Pro 10/4 is a 4-Ohm cab. Your ELF can only go to 4 Ohms, so if you use your existing 8-Ohm cab at the same time you will probably fry the amp*. You need to stick to another 8-Ohm cab, say another Trace ELF 1*10 or the Warwick Gnome 10/8. Better still might be a single 4-Ohm 4x10


*Total load will be 1/ ((1/4)+(1/8)) = 2.67 Ohms

Elf Specs.....

• 200W continuous into 4 ohms / 130W continuous into 8 ohms

 

[Nebadon2000]

ah i see, thank you! thats very good to know indeed.

sadly i think a 4x10 will be too unwieldy. i dont drive so i need to lug this stuff around on public transport and on foot. with seperate cabs i can just do it in 2 trips

so the 200w elf top with 2 1x10 8ohms could potentially be a little meager since youre suggesting the 4ohm 4x10?

would could i combine an 8ohm 2x8 with my 1x10? is that likely better?

Yes adding 2x8 will be slightly better
and on smaller gigs or if band is sensible on volume may only need 2x8

Using public transportation with 2 cabs no matter what is going to be PIA

Certainly don't want to go with 2 bigger 12" cabs

 

[SteveCS]

Elf Specs.....

• 200W continuous into 4 ohms / 130W continuous into 8 ohms

Indeed - what's your point? OP was proposing using a 4 and 8 together. I wasn't suggesting ADDING a 4 Ohm 4x10", rather INSTEAD of the existing 8-Ohm 1x10"

 

[jj.833]

In my experience, adding another small cab will not really affect the volume perceived much. Rather, the sound would get more authoritative, with stronger lows, and with better coverage. If that's what you aim for, get another 1x10.
For a good stage volume, I got most from experimenting with placement of the cab(s). I usually play with a 1x12 cab lifted on a chair. I use Eich 112XS, which sounds great, but is already a bit too much for public transport.

 

[Aloe]

adding another cab is the way to go if you're content with your rig and need to be a tad louder (I'd say 5dB louder is close). 200 watts into a 2x10 isn't that loud, but might be perfectly okay for your case. my best bet is: get just another 1x10 of same model, so you'll have a 'small' and 'a bit bigger' rigs.

if you need to be even more louder, well, you'll need more watts and speakers. a good rig in that ballpark is a 500W head and two 2x10 cabs, one for smaller occasions, two for louder. you can start by grabbing a good effective 210 cab in 8 ohms, later getting a same one and pairing them with your 200W head. and then if you find one cab is not enough for a 'small' rig, get a more powerful head.

I have two 102 Energy cabs, actually one of them is lighter than two Elf 1x10 cabs. and I think, a tad louder as well.

 

[NotAGardener]

I'm not experienced, just curious: How much more speaker power do you need?

My 2x8 RevSound (V28, V for vertically oriented), is easy to transport and would have about 28% more cone area than your 1x10. If you don't need a whole lot more power maybe something like that would work well.

In any event, good luck with your search.

 

[el murdoque]

Here are the problems you're facing, spelled out:
You have:
1 Head capable of 4 ohm operation
1 1x10" cabinet with 8 ohms

You need: More volume.

Adding a second, identical cabinet will raise the output power of the amp (roughly by factor 2) - and obviously double the speaker surface. This will result in a +6dB volume gain and it will sound like a lot more of your bass is in the room.

That said, a 200W head with a setup of 2x 10" is not a lot.
It will not work in harder rock or metal unless your drummer is extremely good at keeping the volume low and you're not picky about your tone.
Dialing out bass and adding lots of mids is something that will raise the perceived volume of the bass in a mix significantly, but usually sound quite honky.

What happens when you go for another cabinet?
If you go any lower than 8 ohm, you will fry your amp head becasue the impedance will drop below the minimum.
If you pick a second 8 ohm cab, the power will be distributed evenly between both cabinets - this is why it is the safest bet to pick one kind of cabinet and then add identical ones until loud enough. Just imagine adding a 4x10 to your setup. The result would be that the head splits the watts evenly, so 100W go to one 10 inch woofer, while the other four also see 100W in total, which they share evenly, so they each see 25W - that might sound weird.
Mixing cabinets of different sizes and different makes can totally work out and it can sound terrible. Some of them are meant wo work together, while others are not.

 

[Wasnex]

In my experience, adding another small cab will not really affect the volume perceived much. Rather, the sound would get more authoritative, with stronger lows, and with better coverage. If that's what you aim for, get another 1x10.

Adding the matching ELF 10 should fill out the low end a bit.

The ELF amp's output power increases from 130W to 200W. The decibel change from the increase in power is 10Log(200/130) = 1.88dB

I don't believe the sensitivity of the ELF 10 has been published, but adding a matching cab increases sensitivity by ~3dB

So the net gain in headroom from adding a second ELF 10 should be 3 + 1.88 = 4.88dB.

4.88dB should be a clearly audible and useful increase in headroom. Whether it will enough for the OP's needs, I can't say.

Rather than adding a cab, the OP could consider buying a bigger 4 ohm cab with higher sensitivity. However 200W is not a lot of power. In order to get the desired increase in headroom while keeping the cab relatively small/light, it may be necessary to replace the amp with something that is more powerful.

I typically used an Eden D210XLT pushed by a 260W amp in my last touring rig. The old Eden was pretty efficient for a 210 and it exceeded my volume requirements. However, it was also rather big and heavy for a 210. FYI published sensitivity for this cab was 103dB 1W/1m.

 

[toughluck]

The ELF 110 cab is very small and lightweight. It's pretty hard to beat in that regard. Anything additional you get isn't going to knock your socks off.
The ELF is 200 W into 4 Ω and 130 W into 8 Ω.
An additional 110 cab with the same parameters is barely going to add 1.8 dB which might end up being completely inaudible.

Adding a larger cab now is going to be a hassle. You might not even get more SPL from two cabs!
Suppose the cab has sensitivity of 95 dB. At 130 watts, it goes up to 106 dB.
Add a 98 dB sensitive 8 Ω cab. You'll get 105 dB from the ELF and 108 dB from the new cab. Total SPL 113 dB.
If you used just that one cab, you'd get 109.5 dB from it alone.
However, if that 98 dB cab was 4 Ω, you'd get 111 dB from it.

But we don't know the SPL of the TE 110 cab. If it's significantly less sensitive than another cab, say, 92 dB vs. 98 dB, then you would get 121.53 dB from two cabs or 119.14 dB from a single cab. Hard to tell whether you want to haul the two cabs.

If you're looking at Warwicks, get a 12/4 cab. It's going to be louder, go deeper and is portable enough. A single cab will work better than two.

If you're more after volume, midrange clarity and not low end extension, look at 210 or 408 cabs. Warwick makes a 4×8/4 cab that's pretty good and gets pretty loud. Just make sure you're getting the 4 Ω version.

 

[ole Jason]

People are missing your follow-up comment indicating you don't drive and need to haul all this stuff on public transport.

Hauling around two cabs without a car is going to be more trouble than it is worth and will get old very quickly. If you're going to be running through a PA anyway just stick with what you have. If that's not the case I'd just get a larger main cab.

 

[shadven]

I have an ELF head and two ELF 1x10” cabs. It is a surprisingly loud, but tiny rig. The cabs are connected in series.

BTW - I’ve pushed an Ampeg 810 fridge with the ElF head and it sounded great with tons of low end and volume.

 

[BOOG]

first of all excuse me for being completely clueless about the amp world. ive no clue how any of this works.

ive used my elf top + 1x10 cab for a few small gigs and ive been very satisfied with it, but now i need an amp for a bigger and louder band. i was kind of hoping stacking another 1x10 cab on top of what i already have will do the trick? is this likely? our drummers play quite loud from time to time.

and if this is likely, can i link any 1x10 cab to my current setup?

and for which cabs, ive been looking on thomann and i saw the warwick pro 10/4. thoughts on that as an option?

I use a pair of TE 2x8 cabs stacked vertically underneath the elf for bar gigs, usually. The band and drummer is loud but the elf rig delivers. Rather than another 1x10, maybe consider the 2x8

 

[toughluck]

Adding the matching ELF 10 should fill out the low end a bit.

The ELF amp's output power increases from 130W to 200W. The decibel change from the increase in power is 10Log(200/130) = 1.88dB

I don't believe the sensitivity of the ELF 10 has been published, but adding a matching cab increases sensitivity by ~3dB

Only if they receive the same power. The head would need to provide 260 W into 4 Ω to increase sensitivity by 3 dB — and only by 3 dB! That's either—or, no free lunch.
My bad.
Coherent sound sources get a +6 dB increase from speaker coupling, not +3 dB, IDK where I got the wrong figure from, I think it was from calculating the combined SPL of unlike bass combos (which have both sensitivity and wattage to consider, not just power from an amp head).

So the net gain in headroom from adding a second ELF 10 should be 3 + 1.88 = 4.88dB.

Let's assume that one TE ELF 110 has 100 dB sensitivity.
At 130 watts, it will run at 121.14 dB
If you add a second 110, they will receive 100 watts each, and will run at 120 dB each, for a total of 123 126 dB.

4.88dB should be a clearly audible and useful increase in headroom. Whether it will enough for the OP's needs, I can't say.

The effective increase would be 1.86 dB, quite a bit less than 4.88 dB. 4.86 dB, so about the same as you gave (I assume it's due to rounding).

Rather than adding a cab, the OP could consider buying a bigger 4 ohm cab with higher sensitivity. However 200W is not a lot of power. In order to get the desired increase in headroom while keeping the cab relatively small/light, it may be necessary to replace the amp with something that is more powerful.

A sensitive 4 Ω cab is indeed the way to go. One cab to carry is perfectly acceptable on public transport (as OP mentioned).

 

[Wasnex]

An additional 110 cab with the same parameters is barely going to add 1.8 dB which might end up being completely inaudible.

Add ~3dB to this figure.

Add a matching cab and hold the power constant and you get ~3dB due to increased efficiency.

Add a matching cab and double the power and you get ~6dB. 3dB comes from doubling the power and 3dB comes from increased efficiency.

Since the ELF amp only increases from 130W to 200W, adding a matching cab gets you ~4.88dB

 

[toughluck]

Sorry, my mistake: +3 dB for coherent sound sources.

I'll edit my posts

Edit: I edited my posts.

Yeah, two cabs will add a respectable amount of SPL, but the convenience of having just one cab, but more sensitive, cannot be overstated.

Two cabs are definitely a great idea for a lot of situations, at least when you haul your own equipment, and allows for some very nice combinations, like 115+210 or 115+410 or stacking multiple 112 cabs, but it will be a pain if you have to rely on public transport.

 

[Wasnex]

Only if they receive the same power. The head would need to provide 260 W into 4 Ω to increase sensitivity by 3 dB — and only by 3 dB! That's either—or, no free lunch.

This is not how it works. Your ignoring the sensitivity gain from doubling the radiating area.

Sensitivity Gain = 10*log(Number of Drivers Driven)
This assumes Sensitivity at 1W/1m

Two matching cabs gives you sensitivity gain of 10Log(2) = +3dB.

So if one cab makes 97dB at 1W, two cabs will make 100dB at 1W

If you have two cabs producing the same SPL, the combined SPL is 6dB higher than the SPL of the individual cabs.

SPL Gain = 20Log (Number of Coincident Sound Sources)

For two near coincident sources: SPL Gain = 20Log(2) = ~6dB



So lets work through what happens to the levels with a pair of cabs that are individually rated 97dB 1W/1m

1 cab at 1W =97dB

Add a second cab and hold the power constant. The power is split, so each cab know makes 94dB; just like you said. The calculation for the decibel change from cutting the power in half is 10Log(0.5) = -3dB

However, the combined output of the two cabs is is ~6dB higher than the output of the individual cabs: 94dB + ~6dB = 100dB. So the combined sensitivity rating of the two cabs is 100dB 1W/1m.

Add a matching cab and hold the power constant and you get ~3dB due to increased efficiency.

Add a matching cab and double the power and you get ~6dB. 3dB comes from doubling the power and 3dB comes from increased efficiency.

Since the ELF amp only increases from 130W to 200W, adding a matching cab gets you ~4.88dB