Small bar gigs .. 200W enough for stage volume?!

[smklassen0977]

So I have a Ampeg B2R (350W @ 4 ohms) running through a BXT410HLF4 @ 4 ohms and I mostly play small bar gigs.. We typically put the amp line out through the PA so I mostly use it for stage volume.. The BXT410HLF is a heavy SOB.. so I want to scale down since it's so heavy.. I can't lift it on my own. I'm looking at a SVT210HE for $200, but that'll take my rig down to 200W since it's an 8 ohm cab.. Since I've never had much of a restriction on headroom I'm wondering if I'll be kicking myself for that extra headroom later for the stage volume.. I'm fairly certain I never go past 2 o' clock on my main volume on the head... just to give an idea of how much stage volume I've used in the past. Thoughts?

 

[Muttleybass]

YES, it should be enough for SMALL bar gigs. For years, I used a GK 800rb, which is only 300 watts @ 4 ohms, into an 8 ohm cab. It was fine for any bar gig. However, after joining a rather loud original project, I did wind up getting a 4 ohm cab later because of the extra head room. It does make a difference.

If you are interested in not losing any power, there's a few worthy 410 cabs with neo speakers you could consider. I had a GK Neo 410 that was about 40 pounds that was killer. At the moment I use a 4 ohm Shroeder 1212L that can handle 700 watts and weighs 38 lbs. It rocks. If you're not stuck on Ampeg, I mean.

 

[kcole4001]

It depends largely on the drummer.
It sounds like you should be OK, though given the fairly low master setting you're using.
You may want to boost the gain a touch to compensate.

I've done it occasionally with a 100 watt 2X10 combo, which I'd say is the absolute minimum, but we don't get loud, just enough to feel the sound and still hear everything clearly.
I normally use an SWR Bass 350 (also 350w @ 4ohms) run into a 8 ohm cab and the master never goes above 9 o'clock.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

My lightweight solution: Genz-Benz 6.0 shuttle (5 lbs.) and two 2x10 Avatars with neodymium magnets, 40 lbs. each. Small club, one 2x10; larger club two 2x10s. And an Avatar 4x10 to add for outdoor stuff. With all cabinets plugged in and functioning at 4 ohms, 600 watts, plenty for just about anything.

 

[Chef]

how loud is loud?
how conscious of overall volume are your band mates?

In many cases, "enough" can really be more about a good, efficient speaker cab than total watts.

 

[JimmyM]

Only you can answer that question. In my case with my current main band, it would be plenty.

 

[smklassen0977]

Our drummer is a heavy hitter.. so I tend to need some volume at times.. Looking at the Harke Hydrive 1x12 .. like that I can switch it to 4 ohms in case I need the extra boost.

 

[Fishyfishfish]

I'm kinda in the same boat with my Metro 2x10-works great until second set when my good friends start turning up and up and up and up. I wear earplugs which really helps me by cutting out all the cymble wash and stage noise, but still I wish I had the horsepower to steer the ship. You might be able to pull it off as a "monitor" of sorts, but anything else would be pushing it IMO

 

[smklassen0977]

Yeah that's what I was thinking.. Suppose it really depends on the band.. since we have a loud drummer I might be wishing I had more headroom. I like the idea of having the Hartke Hydrive 1x12 with the 8 or 4 ohm option in case I need to push a little more. I'm having a hard time finding a good demo on YouTube of a fingers player to see if I truly like it.

 

[JimmyM]

Having enough juice to do the gig is also about the cab, IMHO even more so than having wattage, and throttling a little cab with too much wattage isn't going to do much except make the speaker blow.

 

[smogg]

Having enough juice to do the gig is also about the cab, IMHO even more so than having wattage, and throttling a little cab with too much wattage isn't going to do much except make the speaker blow.

/\/\/\/\ THIS /\/\/\/\
IMHO 350 watts into a single 112 is of no substantial "gain" (pun intended) over 200 watts into the same 112

 

[TripleDouble]

I tend to go for more of a midrange sound and cut the deep lows with lower powered heads and it works fine, then use a bit of oomph with the PA's speakers or subs to fill things out. Then, because I have inadvertently mixed driver sizes, I implode into a deep space phase vortex (stupid TB nerd joke, sorry)

 

[Rockin Mike]

a 1x12 isn't going to get real loud regardless of how many watts it says it can handle.
Consider getting a pair of 8-ohm 2x10 cabs. advantages:
for small gigs you can bring one and run 8 ohms
larger gigs you can bring both and run your amp at 4 ohms for significantly more volume
There are a lot of approx. 5 pound SMPS solid state heads that could power that well, for example
Gallien-Krueger MB500 provides 375 watts @ 8 ohms, or 500 watts @ 4 ohms, and weighs under 4 lbs.
lots of other examples, I think every major amp brand has a model with approximately those specs.
An added benefit is you can stack the 2x10 cabs vertically so you can hear them better and your amp controls are within handy reach.
A lot of companies make lightweight 2x10 cabs; Ampeg, TC, Markbass, Fender, etc.

I think most people would agree the right way to get louder is with more speaker area, not just more watts.

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

I did plenty of small bar gigs with an early GK 400RB.
120 watts into 8 ohms, 200 into 4.
I used either a big, ported 15 with an Altec 421
or a ported 215 with a pair of EVs.

Either way, it was enough and we weren't that quiet.
Yes, I did hit the famous GK raill, some,
but I wasn't trying for way clean, anyway.

Both those speaker cabs were pretty sensitive,
so I got a lot of sound for the watts.

 

[moody]

I do rehearsals (essentially the same sort of situation, monitor for myself and the band) with 45 watts into a single 15" speaker. It is enough but I have a very mid heavy tone.

I have tried rehearsals with many more watts into a single 12" speaker. It may not have been as efficient as my present 15". It was struggling but enough to be heard.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Having enough juice to do the gig is also about the cab, IMHO even more so than having wattage, and throttling a little cab with too much wattage isn't going to do much except make the speaker blow.

I'm with JimmyM, wattage of the amp is only half the equation. Back in the70's I had a 250 watt Solid State Standel amp with a 215 enclosure tuned with 4 circular ports. Even on outdoor gigs I couldn't turn it up more than half way. Indoors at a club that will hold 600 people, 3 (9 o'clock) was as loud up as I could run it. The thing was monster loud. You know John Paul Jones acoustic 360 set up was just 200 watts too but in combination with that folded horn 18" powered speaker cab, it rocked. Nobody ever complained about not enough bass in Led Zeppelin concerts. Now I'm pushing 800 watts into a 410 that will handle 1400 watts and push the SPL's into the 130's. I've yet to really push it because I haven't needed to, but nice to know I can if I do need to.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have an old Sunn Beta 202 (2x12) 4 ohm cabinet and it's only rated for 100 watts. Great sounding cab and it has both serial and parallel outs. I was running an amp at the time that put out 400 watts into 4 ohms and I really had to be careful not to push the speaker over the edge. A farting speaker cab is not a pleasant sound and a good way to put a crease in the speakers or damage the voice coils.

So, yeah, with the right speaker cab combination 200 watts is fine.

 

[foolforthecity]

A wise musician once told me that stage amplification approaches the inverse of venue size. The smaller venues often require basic vocal FOH support with the band largely monitoring and throttling their back line amplification, whereas the largest shows require enough onstage amplification to help the musicians stay in sync while the whole thing is sent to FOH for final output to the audience. So in reality, while Megadeth shows want to look cool to the musically unsophisticated with bank upon bank of Marshalls, their onstage volume is more along the lines of something they could fairly easily talk over without yelling.

I can say with no uncertainty that the small venues reveal an element of musicianship that's probably my top peeve, and that's the ability (or lack thereof) to self-monitor and contain one's sound to properly fit the confines of the environment, which is sadly lacking in a large majority of musical hackers from California to Maine. You want to hear a bunch of bad-a$$es? Find a group of guys (gals) that can sound like a really awesome little boom box sitting there all by its lonesome on an empty stage. When you find a band like that, you've just found nirvana, because this gang understands dynamics and more importantly understands that people aren't at the gig to hear JUST THEM as individuals. The rancid mark of a very, very, immature musician. The kind I don't play with.

 

[buldog5151bass]

If the pa is doing some heavy lifting, it should work.

 

[shawshank72]

I use a Traynor SB115 for my bar gigs.
200W 1x15 at 31lbs.
More than enough.

 

[foolforthecity]

Our drummer is a heavy hitter.. so I tend to need some volume at times.. Looking at the Harke Hydrive 1x12 .. like that I can switch it to 4 ohms in case I need the extra boost.

Buy your drummer a plexiglass shield and isolate him best you can if he doesn't know how to control his dynamics. Then look for a drummer that does.