Solid state/class d vs tube amps

[Drgonzonm]

I am wondering where the next improvements will come from. I hope that direct heated cathode using micro diamond field emission technology will lower power consumption. I believe this design will allow kt66 performance with improved capabilities.

 

[agedhorse]

Unlikely under the best of conditions. The market is about 1000x too small to make that kind of investment in basic research, tooling and production of such advanced technologies.

 

[JimmyM]

Where do you order your tubes from?

Whoever has the best prices. Sometimes I just go to the local music stores and get them if they're fairly common.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I'll go back to my previous statement in that sloppy QC from the manufacture is the issue with tubes. The manufactures are leaving it up to the tube distributors to sort out the good ones from the junk. Look at any tube sight and you will see all these ads about how they screen/burn in, look up their butt with a microscope, etc. etc. Back in the day, I could take all the tubes from my mom's 17" BW TV down to Belts Grill where they had a tube tester. I think all it did was tell you if the tube worked or didn't. Anyway, I would check all the tubes, identify the one that didn't work, and buy a new one. The new one work fine, no problem. Now it's a lot of voodoo, hocus pocus, BBBBSSSS. It's like if you play tubes, and the amp is an integral part of your instrument, you have to have a collection of tubes like a collector of fine wine. I don't mind replacing a tube now and then I just hate the BS.

Business models change and so has the tube industry. Tube manufacturers still have quality control, it just isn’t what it used to be. The desire for high profits makes them strive for an acceptable yield, a lot more tubes used to be trashed. Costs are high and they want to sell everything that they can. Today, tubes are relabeled and sold as a low priced brand, some are given a different product name.

Services that used to be performed at the factory, are now undertaken by the reseller. Resellers burn in, and match power tubes. The problem is, standards vary from none at all to comprehensive. Good resellers will pass the marginal and noisy tubes on to other resellers. It comes down to dealing with a trusted reseller. Product from the bottom of the barrel often winds up as bargains on ebay. A lot of people don’t realize what they are getting, thinking a tube is a tube and seek out the lowest prices. Better to deal with a good reseller that does their job and offers a fair price and a warranty. Prices can be good, none of the crazy NOS hi-fi levels.

Some suppliers have been doing it right for decades. Fortunately, with the high cost of tubes, more resellers are finally stepping up and investing on screening procedures that ensure that there is quality in their product. It’s about time.

Here’s to the good old days when tubes were inexpensive and quality was high.

 

[bucephylus]

I'll go back to my previous statement in that sloppy QC from the manufacture is the issue with tubes. The manufactures are leaving it up to the tube distributors to sort out the good ones from the junk. Look at any tube sight and you will see all these ads about how they screen/burn in, look up their butt with a microscope, etc. etc. Back in the day, I could take all the tubes from my mom's 17" BW TV down to Belts Grill where they had a tube tester. I think all it did was tell you if the tube worked or didn't. Anyway, I would check all the tubes, identify the one that didn't work, and buy a new one. The new one work fine, no problem. Now it's a lot of voodoo, hocus pocus, BBBBSSSS. It's like if you play tubes, and the amp is an integral part of your instrument, you have to have a collection of tubes like a collector of fine wine. I don't mind replacing a tube now and then I just hate the BS.

Different strokes. People enjoy wine in different ways. Some just like to drink anything. Some like to drink better tasting stuff, while having a great time with friends. Some like to buy pallets of the stuff and hoard it. Some like to put on airs as they taste and spit, saying nasty things about less expensive bottles, and the people who drink them.

I think you just need to understand what you like and be happy with that.

 

[bucephylus]

Where do you order your tubes from?

FWIW, when I was last running tubes before going to the Shuttle 9.0, I was procuring the new tubes from Tube Depot; and never received a single bad one. Not one. When hunting NOS stuff, I refer to Joe’s Tube Lore On the 12AX7 family and go hunting on eBay.

 

[Raulplaysbass]

If you call "constantly" about 10 years between tube changes.... no they do not need constant change. nearly all ss amp guys I know have bought several new amps in that time frame.

Sorry, but even the D800 doesn't sound anything like their tube amps. I bought one, it sounded absolutely nothing like my Strategy or my Bass 400, and couldn't even cop the glassy high end of a tube amp.

Very similar experience here with both of the Subway 800's and my SVTII. I've all but given up on the micros.

 

[JimmyM]

Very similar experience here with both of the Subway 800's and my SVTII. I've all but given up on the micros.

Not me. I'm still the world's worst tube snob I'll still use a micro when it's significantly easier. But it has to be pretty significant to make me not want to at least tote my little 50w amp that weighs 20 lbs.

 

[agedhorse]

Sorry, but even the D800 doesn't sound anything like their tube amps. I bought one, it sounded absolutely nothing like my Strategy or my Bass 400, and couldn't even cop the glassy high end of a tube amp.

Let me clear up a misconception here. The Subways were not designed to sound like the Strategy/Prodigy or Bass 400, the voicing and feel is quite different by design and intent. Comparing to them is like comparing oranges and bananas, they are not alike.

 

[Drgonzonm]

Business models change and so has the tube industry. Tube manufacturers still have quality control, it just isn’t what it used to be. The desire for high profits makes them strive for an acceptable yield, a lot more tubes used to be trashed. Costs are high and they want to sell everything that they can. Today, tubes are relabeled and sold as a low priced brand, some are given a different product name.

Services that used to be performed at the factory, are now undertaken by the reseller. Resellers burn in, and match power tubes. The problem is, standards vary from none at all to comprehensive. Good resellers will pass the marginal and noisy tubes on to other resellers. It comes down to dealing with a trusted reseller. Product from the bottom of the barrel often winds up as bargains on ebay. A lot of people don’t realize what they are getting, thinking a tube is a tube and seek out the lowest prices. Better to deal with a good reseller that does their job and offers a fair price and a warranty. Prices can be good, none of the crazy NOS hi-fi levels.

Some suppliers have been doing it right for decades. Fortunately, with the high cost of tubes, more resellers are finally stepping up and investing on screening procedures that ensure that there is quality in their product. It’s about time.

Here’s to the good old days when tubes were inexpensive and quality was high.
View attachment 2778893

You know someone paid to dig up old atari games in Alamogordo NM, Maybe be someone will play to dig up the old tubes in Penn, and sell them as low quality NOS.

 

[lowend1]

Tubes wear out. They do not last forever.

Forever? No. Longer than a lot people think? For sure.
Depends on how hard you are pushing them, and how often the amp is used. My '72 Ampeg SVT still has the original Magnavox-labeled TungSol 6550s in place. I give up about 40 watts to wear & tear, but the tone is to die for. The matching 810 is only rated for about 240 watts anyhow, so I'm good with that.

 

[mikeswals]

Let me clear up a misconception here. The Subways were not designed to sound like the Strategy/Prodigy or Bass 400, the voicing and feel is quite different by design and intent. Comparing to them is like comparing oranges and bananas, they are not alike.

I know that now...but the sales ad totally made sound as if they were;

Built around a combination of signature circuits ranging from our classic tube models like the vintage Bass 400+™ and more recent Bass Strategy™ 8:88™, to the mosfet powered accuracy and mid-focused definition of the Big Block™ 750 and M9 Carbine

Yes the D800 is it's own thing....but as a 26 year Mesa player of course I wanted it to sound similar like the 400 and Strategy that I still own.

 

[JimmyM]

Yes the D800 is it's own thing....but as a 26 year Mesa player of course I wanted it to sound similar like the 400 and Strategy that I still own.

There's nothing wrong with a company branching out to different sounding stuff occasionally, but I must admit I prefer when they don't go too far afield from what brought them to the game in the first place.

 

[agedhorse]

There are common elements to all Mesa amps, but the Subway amps are closer to the WA and Carbines. Some of the OD character has common character to the Strategy/Prodigy and Bass 400 series but the voicing is more WA/Carbine.

I have discussed this in detail earlier in the subway thread.

 

[Anachronism]

There are common elements to all Mesa amps, but the Subway amps are closer to the WA and Carbines. Some of the OD character has common character to the Strategy/Prodigy and Bass 400 series but the voicing is more WA/Carbine.

I have discussed this in detail earlier in the subway thread.

And the poor Buster gets left out...

 

[Raulplaysbass]

Not me. I'm still the world's worst tube snob I'll still use a micro when it's significantly easier. But it has to be pretty significant to make me not want to at least tote my little 50w amp that weighs 20 lbs.

Ok, I was being overly dramatic! I carry a GenzBenz STM-900 to every gig as a back up!! So far my favorite Class D head.

 

[Passinwind]

There's nothing wrong with a company branching out to different sounding stuff occasionally, but I must admit I prefer when they don't go too far afield from what brought them to the game in the first place.

So an accordion amp would be your weapon of choice, eh? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[DavidEdenAria]

Different strokes. People enjoy wine in different ways. Some just like to drink anything. Some like to drink better tasting stuff, while having a great time with friends. Some like to buy pallets of the stuff and hoard it. Some like to put on airs as they taste and spit, saying nasty things about less expensive bottles, and the people who drink them.

I think you just need to understand what you like and be happy with that.

Whether or not to drinik and evaluate very highly rated wine would depend on how my allergies are doing LOL!

Of course some wines need to be drunk when young, others need years to develop... and me coming from a French/German background, its commonplace.....storing wine was something out of necessity and yes the wealthy have been buying up the very best for nearly centuries i guess.

No different than the crowd that wants the very best Bluefin tuna or other such delicacies....they WILL pay for the very best because they CAN.....all of the "flowery descriptions" certainly dont apply to just wine....its the luxurious life of the wealthy in general....i'm happy with a $6 bottle of Australian Cabernet, cheap wine has never been better imo.....heck i will happily cook with Carlo Rossi Burgundy at $13 for 4 liters!

Somewhat similar scenario with sound....i have a few old SS hi fi amps & receivers from the 70's that are pretty warm sounding: Sansui AU7700, Marantz 2230 and 2270 and the one of very first Fisher SS 'The Fisher 250'....all of these are described by hi fi types as having the "2 martini sound, warm and relaxed"......TUBELIKE!

BUT, "the snobs" will tell me these aren't in the league as their McCintosh.... but for me they are close enough.....same with some of my old tube guitar amps, sure a Dumble may be better.... a local dealer sold John Mayer 3 Dumbles about 10 years ago, they all had Sylvania/Phillips 6L6GC in them as that apparently was the favored tube by Howard Dumble

My point is, what is pleasing to you may be different than someone else.....BUT....tube gear and tubes in general will always be a reference.

The price of NOS tubes is more a case of supply being extremely limited....thankfully for now we have folks like "agedhorse" keeping an eye on modern tube production who have years of experience with tube gear yet are leading modern development of electronics.

 

[JimmyM]

So an accordion amp would be your weapon of choice, eh? Not that there's anything wrong with that...View attachment 2779379

LOL! Ampeg was clever...they would make the same amps for accordion and bass but they'd designate them separately for accordion players because they needed respect. That respect lasted till 1961, then it suddenly stopped

 

[beans-on-toast]

LOL! Ampeg was clever...they would make the same amps for accordion and bass but they'd designate them separately for accordion players because they needed respect. That respect lasted till 1961, then it suddenly stopped

You laugh but some of the best entertainers that I’ve seen were playing in polka and klezmer bands. They often had accordions in these bands.