Sound Engineer Not Putting Bass Into Monitors

[azureblue]

I have run into a few of these"no bass in the monitors" guys. They are worried about the monitors being blown by the low end. two solutions - 1- put in a limiter - that will stop excessive low end or 2- roll the low end off the bass at the board, like at 120hz or so. I tell the sound guys that I don't want the bottom in the monitors, just the low mids, to help me hear when I get away from the bass amp.

 

[seanm]

I have run into a few of these"no bass in the monitors" guys. They are worried about the monitors being blown by the low end. two solutions - 1- put in a limiter - that will stop excessive low end or 2- roll the low end off the bass at the board, like at 120hz or so. I tell the sound guys that I don't want the bottom in the monitors, just the low mids, to help me hear when I get away from the bass amp.

I doubt they are worried about the monitors being blown... highs are better for doing this. More likely they don't want the bass to suck up all the power and leave nothing for vocals.

 

[Johnny Crab]

OP: No worries mate! Have the drummer ask for it and other band members back him up.
IF the FOH is putting enough bass out front, the subs & drum monitor(s) can be used for that and a small kickback for mids-highs-clarity at your vocal mike location. This setup works VERY well for ALL of the places I've done where the FOH mix has bass and the subs to push it AND the drummer's monitor has a working 15" speaker or is a newer version QSC powered monitor.

In this pic, subs to my right and drum monitor over my left shoulder give me all I need. The QSC was provided for vocals and the Behringer Hartke clone works very nicely. This setup was accidentally discovered after 40 years of rigs and fighting FOH folks, volume wars, etc. I had borrowed my teenage son's practice amp(Behringer as-seen) for a gig and it worked great. So I bought a few of those amps....they all still work and take abuse as-applied. It takes a bit to get used to hearing/feeling bass from elsewhere.

If the sound operator is a rookie, has wooden ears, or simply thinks bass should be seen and not heard or felt, you can always go <deleted word> on them with a bi-amp rig. The rig below was put together after experiencing a show where the FOH gradually deleted bass from the PA leaving me with a 12" speaker for an outdoor event. Should've know when we pulled up to load in and the headliner(major country artist) sounded like garbage in the mix. Rookie operator with a high-dollar PA and zero knowledge.

 

[Wasnex]

i'm curious about this. when i perform, i want to hear all the instruments and vocals in a well balanced mix.

Most people share this goal; however, everyone has different tastes. Some people like a lot of bass in their mix and some people don't. How do you reconcile this? As the bassist, is it on you to mandate what constitutes a well balanced monitor mix for every band member?

Additionally, the general rule I stated has to do largely with how most people's perception of what constitutes a good mix changes when they are playing versus listening. A mix most people find pleasing and balanced for listening purposes will typically not be very satisfying for monitoring purposes because they can't hear enough enough of themselves. This is were the 6-10 db rule comes in. When I mix I generally set up the board where each monitor mix is balanced and then boost the level of the person the mix is assigned to by 6-10 db. This serves as a starting point for sound check. Usually only minor adjustments are needed to get each mix where everyone is happy.

Regarding putting the bass amp or entire backline further back...I think this can be a good idea for two reasons. 1) if you are too close to the speaker and it is on the floor, you will not hear the top end of the sound because of the dispersion characteristics of the speakers. Move the speaker back and this widens the area where you hear the full range of the sound. 2) Placing the amp further back allows you to take advantage of the inverse square law so the sound is at at more uniform volume level throughout a larger monitoring area. Inverse square law says (in a free space) you lose 6 db for each doubling of distance. For example, if you are 3 feet from you amp, you theoretically lose 6 db by increasing your distance from the speaker to 6 feet. Move the amp back 3 feet and turn it up 6 db. Now you have to move forward 12 feet before you lose your 6 db.

Consequences of moving the backline back is this increases the volume going into the house and at some point degrades our ability to give everyone their desired 6-10 db in their space. There are other consequences as well, such as coupling the bass amp with the floor and backwall can make it very boomy sounding. Thus, where you place the backline varies on the venue and how the backline will be used.

 

[yodedude2]

okay, but i can't stand when i don't have a reference for what the f.o.h. sounds like. it affects how i play and sing. i've heard some monitor mixes my bandmates prefer and they have no clue what some others onstage are playing (i.e. lead guitarist). that would bother me, though.

good point about the backline/amps issues. i'd like to try i.e.m.s sometime and go ampless.

 

[DD Gunz]

I actually have more of an issue when it's a situation where the PA is only used for vocals and possibly the snare and kick drum. In larger venues all I can hear in that situation is myself sometimes. This is not an issue normally, but it was an issue when I had just joined the band and didn't know all the songs as well as I do now.

 

[Wasnex]

okay, but i can't stand when i don't have a reference for what the f.o.h. sounds like.

Why would you choose to be frustrated almost every time you play. Running live sound is all about making compromises. As an audio tech, you do the best you can to get the house sounding good and the best you can to get X number of monitor mixes sounding good. Frequently the house and stage sound fight against each other so you have to pick your battles and negotiate candidly and diplomatically with the talent who typically doesn't understand why you don't just wave your magic wand and make everything sound perfect. Ultimately you have to decide if it is better for the sound on stage to be the best it can be, or for the house sound to be the best it can be. More often than not, this is the real question the audio tech is dealing with. With inexperienced musicians, often the answer is taken out of the audio techs hands because the musicians get into an escalating volume war trying to find the 6-10 db they need to be comfortable in a space that is insufficiently large. When this occurs, the audio tech typically has one option to make the house sound better...take the offending instrument completely out of the house mix and pray you have enough headroom in the system to get the vocals over the fray.

In my experience, one of the worst things you can do for the house sound in medium spaces is have bass blasting through all of the monitors. The bass bleeds through all of the open microphones and the sound gets blurred because multiple incidents of the bass signal get summed across a wide variety of time domains and then spit back into the the room where the cycle repeats itself over and over again. The result is to create a reverb and delay effect in the bass guitar frequency spectrum with no high pass filter. This frequently results in a boomy, mushy mess and guess who gets blamed for it.

Do I typically run bass in the monitors, yes, but usually with high pass filter set around 80 hz. But I also try my best to get the band to keep the stage at a reasonable volume and accept various compromises necessary to ensure the audience enjoys reasonably good sound at a sane volume.

Good luck finding your audio nirvana my friend. No offense, but I hope I never have to mix for you.

 

[yodedude2]

geez, wasnex, i hope you do! you sound like a great sound guy who really understands their stuff! and yes, compromise is the name of the game for us onstage. i bet you could step it up a notch for us. thanks for the dialogue and sharing your input.

thanks for the bandwidth, op. sorry about the derail.