Sound problems in new studio

[Nevada Pete]

Hi,

Can't finish this now but I wanted to say that flattening the response of a loudspeaker with pink noise and a 31 band equalizer is ideal for a home stereo or PA stacks at a gig. But it's not the same thing as ringing out a monitor. You don't use pink noise for ringing out monitors. I'll try to post a message with more info on this, but I can't do it right now. I think we can squeeze some more juice out of your monitors, though.

 

[Conkal]

Whenever you can , it will be a great help.

 

[Kelly robinson]

First off - I am not an expert but I have done some live recording in small home studios that came out pretty good . My first suggestion would be to reposition the guitar amps . They should not be parallel to the walls nor should they be facing towards the shortest room dimension . I would try putting them closer to the drums - angled away from being parallel to any wall and pointed towards the longest room dimension you have to work with . Then you can try putting the singer in different spots to see what works best for him and the band . Admittedly , this is rudimentary advice but it is cheap to try and may help some . I would also second the suggestion to try the Shure mic as they are famous for their ability to resist feeding back . Best of luck .... Kelly

 

[jj.833]

If your studio is acoustically treated and still not good enough, you can try two very basic things:

1) remember to put the microphone against the monitors (so that the singer looks into the monitors, while the mic is facing away from the monitors). I'd try putting the red monitors next to / below the violet ones. As you have it now, you have four sources of sound, coming to the mic from many directions, generating superfluous sources of feedback you need to fight.

2) position all speakers so they would play into the ears of the musicians. If, for example, the guitar amp is small and is lying on the ground, and the guitar player is standing right next to it, then the guitar player will have to turn the volume way up so he would hear himself, because his amp's speaker is generally 'playing forwards' while the player is 'standing sideways'. If that is the case, then probably the guitarist hears less of his guitar than the other musicians. What to do: put the amps (and the guitarists) on the chairs. The closer the guitarist's ear to his speaker, the less he will need to turn the volume to the right. But be reasonable, hearing damage is a real danger. The same is valid for bass player of course. As for the singer, make sure the monitors are in the height of his ears.

Good positioning of amps and monitors is as crucial as good room dampening. It surely is pretty annoying to reposition the monitors, stands, all the cables... but even a small move might sometimes solve the problem, while buying more electronic stuff only softens it. Try new ideas every rehearsal, until you find it.

To find the right voice volume, start with just a core: one mic, one 300W monitor, no gEQ... does he hear himself? No? Then add the second 300W. 2x300W for just a voice should be more than enough for rather any given room. I think that the violet monitors might be completely superfluous (turn them off, if you hear no difference in volume, forget about them). If you are successful with fighting the feedback and the voice is still too silent, you might consider using some voice preamp to better control the mic gain.

I came to understand that with high volumes, the ear goes numb after a while. So you increase your amp volume... etc. Nowadays, when I don't hear myself, I turn the volume down. It helps surprisingly often. In my experience, this method is hard to explain to guitarists somehow. You could try to tell them: 'If you want to kill with the volume, position your amp so you would kill yourself and not the others.' It might even help them to develop their musicality.

 

[MVE]

As others have stated, getting the most volume out of your vocals in a small rehearsal space is all about placement.

Look up the response pattern of your microphone (you should be able to google it and find it on manufacturers website).

Start by adjusting placement of monitor and mic until the speaker is pointed at the part of the mic with the least response.

This is just a suggestion. In small rooms the walls, ceiling, even the singers face can reflect sound back into the mic and start feeding back.

 

[Bassndrums73]

It’s real simple. I have played in a loud rock band for 40 years and practiced in smaller rooms than what you had. The trick is to have a monitor at the very least for everyone that sings and preferably one for everyone in the band. Then it has to be on a stand so it’s about 2 or 3 feet at the very most pointed right a the singers heads. Don’t put a wedge down on the floor, it’s too far away and you’ll still get feedback. It needs to be on a stand coming from the side of their head. This will make it so you can get as loud as the singer needs because you don’t have to turn it up quite ad loud as you do when the monitors are across the room. It can get plenty loud without feedback even with blaring guitars and crushing drums. If that doesn’t work they need to turn down a little bit or quit their freaking crying. Oh....... I want my amp on 20 and still have no feedback in the monitors! Not going to happen in that room.

 

[bearfoot]

I didn't read every detail, but I read most of the thread. I am a longtime amateur myself so I have little to add, except the thought that you might also try swapping the vocal mic, and perhaps using something more directional.

 

[Paulabass]

Playing at stage volume during rehearsal accomplishes nothing except premature deafness.
Rehearse at reasonable levels and a week before leaving for your world tour, hire a soundstage. THAT'S what real bands do.
You mention 100, and 300watt monitors. I have to assume they are quite old at those power handling (without getting into the discussion of 'what is power handling?') Older consumer grade monitors were not very flat response, and needed a lot more EQ'ing than touring grade/modern monitors. Get a pro in there one day to EQ, then put a locking cover on your EQ's.
I work with (plus or minus) 80 bands a year, in all genres. I haven't worked with an old fashioned LOUD band for years. Even metal bands have brought down their volume by a huge degree. As a rule, if I (sitting at optimally 25 metres back) can hear your stage sound you are too loud, and it's time to bring out the plexi baffles. Aside from making mixing difficult, it bombards those at the front of the stage with a terrible mix of guitar amps, and not much else.
I worked with singer Robert Gordon for a while. Center stage was called 'the war zone' where he liked an AVERAGE of over 100db db from his vocal monitors. This was excruciatingly loud, and took months of experimentation to be able to achieve every night. By the time we had spent about $25,000 euros on just his monitors (Claire bros. sidewash and wedges, and Bryston amps, 1/3 octave EQ's and notch filters) we had it so he could achieve the levels he liked, but we were dangerously living on the edge of uncontrollable feedback all the time.
Even if you cannot afford wireless in-ears, simple wired ones (they do limit mobility, so you will need to re-address this when touring) can be built for next to nothing (Behringer just came out with a wired in-ear amp for about 30 euros)
I cannot stress enough how much better the band will play, and sound at lower levels.

 

[TomB]

In ears are expensive, but can the singer just use headphones with a feed from the console or a headphone amp? IME, headphones are pretty standard in studio situations, regardless of ambient volume level.

 

[five7]

move the vocalist to the control room

 

[DavC]

since this is just for rehearsal ... get a Feedback Eliminator of some kind for the mic .. !

can the monitors to moved around , up/down ... when they're practicing to help find a better position ..?

sad to say ... hearing damage is Permanent , as those nerves don't regenerate ... fyi

 

[trailer]

Swap the monitors around, tape the ones on stands to each side of the singers head....lol sorry.

 

[JKos]

I know that they should play quieter , but it is also not an option at least not in the extent that is needed for a proper rehearsal.

Haven't we moved past this in this day and age? Do they all wear hearing protection?

Playing at stage volume during rehearsal accomplishes nothing except premature deafness.
Rehearse at reasonable levels and a week before leaving for your world tour, hire a soundstage. THAT'S what real bands do.

Exactly.

Get a monitor closer to the singer's head, not on the floor. As mentioned above, start with one monitor by the singer's head. If other's want to hear the singer, put a monitor near their head. Point the guitar amp speaker cabs at the players' heads.

- John

 

[Paulabass]

Something you may consider- I've worked with some 'loud' guitarists.
Paul Stanley. What the audience sees- Four full stacks, four heads. What he actually uses- A Fender Deluxe on a folding chair that points at his tech who also does effects.
Vinnie Moore. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- A 50 watt Marshall and 1 4x12 facing into the wings.
Rik Emmett. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- a sixty watt Soldano combo.

Wayne Kramer. Two full stacks. Turned up to 11. Dear Dog he was loud. Nobody on stage could hear the monitors.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Out of curiosity do you consider 30m2 to be a small room ?! It is probably one ofthe bigger i have rehearshed in.

15x20? That's a pretty small room dude. That's basically a decent sized stage. Except stages are open. This is a room, where sound is bouncing around and yall are playing metal. But, at lower volumes, with the bass amp well away from the walls, you should be alright. Lift the monitors to head level, put plexiglass shields around the front of the drums, and foam padding behind them. This will keep the sound from reverberating so much, and semi isolate your noise problems. That's pretty much all I've got on this one.

 

[WardEarth]

Some vocal mics create much less feedback. I forget what they're called but I have one and its a big difference. Other than that, I think blankets on the walls etc, cushion the room. Try to stop the sound waves from bouncing into the mic.

 

[The_Janitor]

If you're using a cheap vocal mic it will be more prone to feedback. Spend the 100 Euro on a Sennheiser E835 or a Shure SM58 and you'll have better gain-before-feedback.

 

[PaulJSmith]

This is simple to fix.

Turn down the volume.

I know you said your friend's band won't go for this, but it is the only reasonable fix, and it's FREE. This concept is no different in your studio than it is on a live stage. If you can't hear the vocals through the monitors without getting into feedback, it's because everything else is just too freaking loud. Period. Adjust the level of the vocals to the loudest point you can get it without feedback, then adjust the rest of the band's volume levels to fit under that. This method will work every time.

Do you have anything in the room for acoustic treatment? I know foam can get expensive quick, but blankets can be cheap from second hand stores and thrift stores. Here in the US, we also have places like Harbor Freight Tools where you can buy cheap moving blankets for US$5.00. Even a little bit of treatment on the walls will make a huge difference. Carpet or area rugs on the floor helps, too. Try to eliminate any directly parallel hard surfaces where the sound just reflects back and forth.

 

[saabfender]

Situation out of control! Band is dictating how the session will be run. Nip it in the bud!

Band lays down basic tracks, singer sings over them. That’s the way it works. I don’t know what fantasy land those people live in.

Slap a set of cans on the singer: done. He doesn’t get to monitor playback on speakers. Those are for the engineer, who shouldn’t be listening to them loud anyway.

If they don’t like it, show them the door.

 

[MDBass]

Situation out of control! Band is dictating how the session will be run. Nip it in the bud!

Band lays down basic tracks, singer sings over them. That’s the way it works. I don’t know what fantasy land those people live in.

Slap a set of cans on the singer: done. He doesn’t get to monitor playback on speakers. Those are for the engineer, who shouldn’t be listening to them loud anyway.

If they don’t like it, show them the door.

They’re talking about rehearsing, not recording.

Still: if the singer can’t hear himself and the mic feeds back, they probably need to turn down.