Sound problems in new studio

[JmJ]

Supercardioid or Hypercardioid mics will reject off axis sounds and feedback better than a SM 58 which is a mere cardioid. I find that the EV Neodymium mics work well for this.

 

[MDBass]

I will provide photos tonight when i hit the studio
[it is 10.00am here and i am at work] but i can make a quick sketch

The problem, aside from them being too loud, is pretty obvious from that graphic: the singer only has a single floor monitor, which may actually be too close to him.

Get him a second monitor, and make sure they are both aimed at his ears and not his knees or belt line: midrange and treble frequencies are VERY directional.

Getting full sized monitors to replace the tiny ones on the stands will likely help too.

 

[ofajen]

Assuming the mike is cardioid, you might try using only the floor monitors, located in the rear facing null of the mike, but not using any vocal monitors that are not in line with or close to the null.

Otto

 

[And I]

Yes, you should still do all the things suggested as far as EQ'ing out the frequencies that are feeding back, not pink-noiseing the room for flat response, moving the speakers so no speaker is facing the microphone and each speaker is aimed at the ears of the musicians, using a mic that has great off-axis rejection, etc. But they need to turn down the guitars and bass in rehearsal in a room of this size, and the drummer can't bash the crap out of the drums and cymbals. This is not negotiable if they want to be able to hear the singer. If they won't turn down they need a much bigger room and a bigger PA. I have played super-aggressive 7-string guitar scream-o metal and it still works if you turn down at rehearsal. They are creating this problem for themselves by insisting on stage-volumes in a small rehearsal room.

 

[Turbo Sparky]

Are you recording vocals during "all play"?
Perhaps, tracking vocals seperatly after all-play, all by themselves via headphone for singer.
Or, build seperate vocal booth/shielding.
We track/record vocals AFTER all else is said and done, then mixdown.
Good luck.

 

[Turbo Sparky]

I would like to be able to record the rehearsals live. But the proper recording will be made track by track.

The problem is when we rehearse. Technically when the other band plays(this band with the brutal vocals is not mine)

I don't read all the responses, so if someone has said this apologies:
Shield/baffel drums, run rehearsal through headphones, or place vocalist off in a corner away from main direct soundwaves, with a blanket over them AND their mic. Shielding/dampening sound is key. Consider shielding drums and lower overall volume as another alternative.
Look at the brightside, in no time at all, you will know what works and what doesn't in realtime; experience goes farther versus paying for sessions. Good luck!

 

[Ostie]

This is why I no longer play in bands with ear-crushing volume. My ears have been crushed for too long.

 

[lat]

Or something similar...

https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Professional-Sound-Shield-Live/dp/B01GDB74WQ

 

[seamonkey]

Those shields don't always work so good. Cardioid mics need the sound to enter the back of the mic so they know what to cancel. Blocking off the back can cause more feedback and who wants to sing into something like that for a rehearsal?

Singer should try IEM

But if they're all over the place running around there are some software solutions
These have demo versions and can be used in the studio and live:

PSE - Primary Source Expander Plugin | Waves
X-FDBK Feedback Eliminator Plugin Demo | Videos | Waves

 

[MDBass]

Or something similar...

https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Professional-Sound-Shield-Live/dp/B01GDB74WQ

That won't help the vocalist hear himself better: it's a mic shield used to block room reflections, and would also block any monitors aimed at his ears.

 

[MDBass]

Those shields don't always work so good. Cardioid mics need the sound to enter the back of the mic so they know what to cancel.

That's not how how a cardioid pattern works: the mic isn't listening for what to cancel, it just has "deaf spots" from certain directions.

 

[lat]

That won't help the vocalist hear himself better: it's a mic shield used to block room reflections, and would also block any monitors aimed at his ears.

True. Was thinking of the feedback issue...

 

[BAG]

I have read most replies and haven't seen it yet but do the guitarists have their amps pointed right at their ears?
If not they should as they won't be able to hear anyone else if they're too loud. Either they will gradually turn everything down till they can hear the other instruments or they won't be able to play together properly due to not being able to hear each other.

 

[JKos]

but do the guitarists have their amps pointed right at their ears?

That's been said a couple times. But sure is worth repeating!

- John

 

[Conkal]

Let me clarify the situation because a lot of people are a bit confused. I am not a native English speaker, so I may have not been clear enough.

* The guitar amps are set at ear level.The monitors are old , its true. 2X 300W ElectroVoice ground monitors and 2X100W put on stands of a 1990s british brand called Torque. These were a gift to us from an old guy that worked as a sound guy.

*This is not a professional studio, meaning I am not a sound engineer and neither is the other co-owner. We have learnt things and continue to learn but we are amateurs. It was a derelict warehouse that we totally made-over into a studio. We also are not professional musicians. Music for us is the ultimate hobby and we spend most of our free time on it, but there is no need for irony from you. We wont reach the world stage in this lifetime, not that a lot of people playing rock/metal in Greece have ever done it anyway.

*30m2 (16X21 feet) maybe is a small place to play music into in the US, but trust me size is a relative thing. In my city, most rehearsal studios are smaller than that, with about 20-25 being the norm and kind-of expensive.Smaller but they succeed in letting the other band have their practice and hear themselves in the process.There is a saying that the US is the land of the Extra Large, which i think is true

* The loud band is not mine , I always wear ear protection and i have reached an age (32...)were telling others to protect themselves or how to live their lives in general is a waste of my time , really. I hope they use their protection though .

*We don't have a lot of money left, so we would like a DIY/low budget idea to make this situation work better.We try to do the best we can with what we have. A lot of people have proposed very interesting solutions and i will check them one by one. I really thank you all for helping Some ideas were really new to me.

*To put it into perspective , the loud band has a loud-ish drummer and the others compete their volumes with the drummer. It is loud , but ear-crushing or stage-volume is stretching it.

 

[seamonkey]

That's not how how a cardioid pattern works: the mic isn't listening for what to cancel, it just has "deaf spots" from certain directions.

They cancel sound pressure that enters from the back and front.
Cardioids are a omnidirectional combined with a figure 8. When they pick up the sound from the holes in the back of the cartrige, and it also shows up on the front, it cancels.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Something you may consider- I've worked with some 'loud' guitarists.
Paul Stanley. What the audience sees- Four full stacks, four heads. What he actually uses- A Fender Deluxe on a folding chair that points at his tech who also does effects.
Vinnie Moore. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- A 50 watt Marshall and 1 4x12 facing into the wings.
Rik Emmett. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- a sixty watt Soldano combo.

Wayne Kramer. Two full stacks. Turned up to 11. Dear Dog he was loud. Nobody on stage could hear the monitors.

The real world from a real pro.

 

[frankzap]

In ear monitors?

 

[Conkal]

First of all I would like to thank you all for the suggestions, but especially Nevada Pete, who sent me a very detailed step-by-step instruction list in PMs for ringing out the monitors. The results showed how totally wrong i had done it before, as i was stuck with the wrong idea to begin with. The feedback reduction was impressive!

I also ditched the AKG mic and used the Shure SM58 that we had.
As a last step, i used (reluctantly ) the "turn the amps around" trick. (amazingly) It worked!

Generally, The studio is in a lot better state and we tested it with a not-so-loud rock band on Sunday very successfully . We will test with another two bands on Tuesday and Thursday and I will keep you posted.

Thank you all and
Nevada Pete, I really cant thank you enough

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

The real world from a real pro.

Something you may consider- I've worked with some 'loud' guitarists.
Paul Stanley. What the audience sees- Four full stacks, four heads. What he actually uses- A Fender Deluxe on a folding chair that points at his tech who also does effects.
Vinnie Moore. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- A 50 watt Marshall and 1 4x12 facing into the wings.
Rik Emmett. Two full stacks, two heads. What he actually uses- a sixty watt Soldano combo.

Wayne Kramer. Two full stacks. Turned up to 11. Dear Dog he was loud. Nobody on stage could hear the monitors.

Note to self: Avoid working with Wayne Kramer.