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Soundman insist on me going direct

#141
bassfreakah said:
I hear you buddy it helps to have a great sound from you bass without any gimmicks. this is just my opinion tho.
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what you might see as a gimmick is a essential to another. A sound man is suppose to reproduce the sound of the band he is dealing with at the time. That is his job. It shouldn't matter to him if the band has a double bass and he has to mic the thing or the band has a guy running a rickenbacker through a Marshall stack and has to mic that [Actually I seen Lemmy yell at a sound man more then once over the PA more than once :laugh:]. Really if you are nice and loom over them evilly you usually don't get much argument with how you are run through the PA ;)
 
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#145
Leo Smith said:
Two options, both are kind of on the sly --

1 - plug in his DI after the Sansamp.

2 - he plugs your bass into his DI and the XLR to the board. When he walks away, just replug your stuff how you want, and don't say anything to anyone. Leave his box onstage near your stuff. At the end of the set, reconnect his DI to the XLR.

I've been caught in your situation many times, at festivals and recording studios. I took control of the situation when the soundguy / engineer walked away, and no one ever noticed either way.
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TO add to the above maybe carry an extra cord or two to make it look like his unit is still plugged in :)
 
#146
JimmyM said:
Better in whose eyes?
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Fewer 'unknown variables' in the signal chain. I like to have a sound man that knows how to get good results. If he is not comfortable with any piece of equipment i don't mind skipping it in aid of getting the results I hope for. Especially if it is not essential/the only way to get a certain sound/tone.
Otherwise I'd check with the sound guy before hiring him, to see if he can handle the gear I insist on using. If he can't, I won't hire him
 
#147
Not everyone is looking for a clean tone. My pedals are 100% essential to my sound when I want to use them. That is not the soundman's call to make. And let's face it...at this point, if you're unfamiliar with a Sansamp, you're either a total newb or you're incompetent. Speaking in the royal "you," of course, not you personally.
 
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#148
this is my take on getting your tone in my honest opinion if you are using FX specifically...

the idea is that you stick your line that goes to your amp into a headphone amp or IEM's or equiv. put on a set of headphones and set your tone. set your levels so that when you change sounds the level stays the same. this way you know exactly the sound you are reproducing. then also you know then that the sound guy is getting your tone, no questions asked...

then you set your sound on the amp cos obviously your amp isn't going to reproduce your tone instantly, you are going to have to adjust accordingly.

kind of makes sense yeah? and this is why sound guys like to go direct with a bass that doesn't have any FX (either pre-amp, or from the amp) cos the signal is considerably easier to work with (aka, getting your sound). and you are still going to find that even putting a mic in front of your cab that the sound guy isn't running your signal flat anyway, there will be some EQ adjustments for the PA. so really is it something to really make that much of a fuss over...IMO not really. im there to work with them, not make their life a living hell...
 
#149
Seriously If they won't put a mike in front of my Hiwatt I'll walk. My rig is a big part of my sound. Also a mic is the only way to catch my effects. I hate DIs and won't use one period.
 
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#150
JimmyM said:
Not everyone is looking for a clean tone. My pedals are 100% essential to my sound when I want to use them. That is not the soundman's call to make. And let's face it...at this point, if you're unfamiliar with a Sansamp, you're either a total newb or you're incompetent. Speaking in the royal "you," of course, not you personally.
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I'd try get a capable sound guy if at all possible.
Communicate your needs clearly and see who is suitable.

in this situation I'd really try to get someone else for this gig and future ones as his job really is to get the band across well, rather than his own ideals.
 
#151
Mudfuzz said:
what you might see as a gimmick is a essential to another. A sound man is suppose to reproduce the sound of the band he is dealing with at the time. That is his job. It shouldn't matter to him if the band has a double bass and he has to mic the thing or the band has a guy running a rickenbacker through a Marshall stack and has to mic that [Actually I seen Lemmy yell at a sound man more then once over the PA more than once :laugh:]. Really if you are nice and loom over them evilly you usually don't get much argument with how you are run through the PA ;)
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Sorry I did not mean to say gimmick. We traveled with our sound man and we worked hard to have a great bass tone every where we went . we had so much other stuff going on i thought it was helpful on him for me just to have my sound from my bass and di and thats it. every place we played i had my sound back line amp whatever and the band as a whole sounded great !! He had more time to work on stereo Lesley mikes 5 vocal mikes with separate mixes and so on. I always got a phat huge bass sound in front of house!!!!!
 
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#152
bassfreakah said:
Sorry I did not mean to say gimmick. We traveled with our sound man and we worked hard to have a great bass tone every where we went . we had so much other stuff going on i thought it was helpful on him for me just to have my sound from my bass and di and thats it. every place we played i had my sound back line amp whatever and the band as a whole sounded great !! He had more time to work on stereo Lesley mikes 5 vocal mikes with separate mixes and so on. I always got a phat huge bass sound in front of house!!!!!
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If you and your band is happy with that than that is the right way. For me even if my amp isn't miked my pedalboard IS important, I play in a trio most of the time and I have to fill in for another keyboard and or guitar depending on the song, I've never had THAT sound guy where when I explained that did just use the direct from my amp or mike my amp wouldn't be totally cool about it:thumbsup:
 
#153
Big_Daws said:
this is my take on getting your tone in my honest opinion if you are using FX specifically...

the idea is that you stick your line that goes to your amp into a headphone amp or IEM's or equiv. put on a set of headphones and set your tone. set your levels so that when you change sounds the level stays the same. this way you know exactly the sound you are reproducing. then also you know then that the sound guy is getting your tone, no questions asked...

then you set your sound on the amp cos obviously your amp isn't going to reproduce your tone instantly, you are going to have to adjust accordingly.

kind of makes sense yeah? and this is why sound guys like to go direct with a bass that doesn't have any FX (either pre-amp, or from the amp) cos the signal is considerably easier to work with (aka, getting your sound). and you are still going to find that even putting a mic in front of your cab that the sound guy isn't running your signal flat anyway, there will be some EQ adjustments for the PA. so really is it something to really make that much of a fuss over...IMO not really. im there to work with them, not make their life a living hell...
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Using effects makes their lives a living hell? Really? Then how come they have no problem using the guitarist's effects? How come they never say to the keyboard player, "OK, use only piano out of the bottom keyboard and only organ in the top one?" And how come it's OK to make MY life a living hell but not theirs? The hell with making their job easy. Nobody makes my job easy. And when they take away my effects, they make my job impossible. I already compromised on bagging the mic and using a DI because of soundmen, and there's no way in hell I'm compromising anymore. Not that using a REDDI is a bad thing by any means but it's about the only DI I like, other than maybe going out the back of one of my tube amps.

As for your argument against a mic, I rarely had a problem getting the mic'ed sound to sound like the amp. All I'd have to say is "Make my bass sound like my amp in the PA and the mix will be golden," and if they listened, it did, and if they didn't, it didn't. But let's assume you're right and it doesn't sound 100% identical to my amp...so what? Is that to say it can't sound good? Because I have a whole lot of evidence that it does, and way better than some cheap crap Whirlwind DI, that's for sure.
 
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#154
When I used to run monitors, our sound guy usually did two bass channels. Here are some of the ways he would do it. Perhaps if you suggest this to the guy he may do it.
method 1: D.I. and a kick mic on the cab, or sometimes an SM57
method 2: two D.I.s One Pre EQ and one Post EQ (usually from a SansAmp or something).
These methods can have some cool results and allow the guy to dial in a mix of clean tone tone and slight grit. Or sometimes, using one for most of the lows and one for attack and clarity.
I personally prefer method #2 because it eliminates possible bleed and allows you to tweak your stage sound without affecting the FOH bass sound.
 
#155
JimmyM said:
Using effects makes their lives a living hell? Really? Then how come they have no problem using the guitarist's effects? How come they never say to the keyboard player, "OK, use only piano out of the bottom keyboard and only organ in the top one?" And how come it's OK to make MY life a living hell but not theirs? The hell with making their job easy. Nobody makes my job easy. And when they take away my effects, they make my job impossible. I already compromised on bagging the mic and using a DI because of soundmen, and there's no way in hell I'm compromising anymore. Not that using a REDDI is a bad thing by any means but it's about the only DI I like, other than maybe going out the back of one of my tube amps.

As for your argument against a mic, I rarely had a problem getting the mic'ed sound to sound like the amp. All I'd have to say is "Make my bass sound like my amp in the PA and the mix will be golden," and if they listened, it did, and if they didn't, it didn't. But let's assume you're right and it doesn't sound 100% identical to my amp...so what? Is that to say it can't sound good? Because I have a whole lot of evidence that it does, and way better than some cheap crap Whirlwind DI, that's for sure.
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*** is your prob bro...im not saying to go pre FX...im saying go post FX but set your tone and your levels appropriately. and using your headphones to hear exactly how your tone sounds going to FOH so that you know that no matter what your sound/tone that it is going to FOH at appropriate levels. nothing worse than doubling your signal by using a distortion pedal or a delay or some other kind of pedal. quickest way to blow speakers/subs/amps, and i would totally suggest using whatever DI inline from your FX to the amp/FOH if it does indeed have the option.

then i would use my amp to reproduce my tone how i like, whilst i know what im sending to FOH without a worry in the world VIA. especially if the sound tech is a dick and will only use a DI! and to the contrary of your belief, i don't disagree with using a mic, i don't believe that it is 100% necessary if a) my amp is reproducing the sound i want, and b) my DI signal from my FX is my tone to go to FOH. that being said if your preference is that you prefer to use a mic then you have lost nothing by doing this.

this however changes however if you do not have fx, and going direct from your bass to your amp, then i would take a clean line of your bass (from the amp or a pref J48) and/or if preferred by the bassist mic the cab.

my argument was never against the use of a mic, it was that you should take measures into your own hands to ensure that your sound regardless of source is sent to FOH, via DI or MIC. and my advice was more specific to those that were using FX.
 
#156
DOH! Sorry man. I completely misunderstood your reply. For some reason it was reading to me like you were saying to forget about FX. Must have been because I was at the airport. Airports always shake me up anyway, and I had the road trip from hell this weekend.
 
#157
Savage_Dreams said:
thats all fine and dandy if all you want is a common bass tone. some of us like to use other options that are available to color our sound.

why not make it all simple and easy all the way around and make the guitarist use whatever distortion patch the soundguy wants to use as well?

just because some players are happy with a barebones sound doesnt mean those of us who want more should be forced to do it that way just to make it easy for the soundguy. a good soundguy should have no problem taking a line from a bassists own personal di, and god forbid he has to spend a few extra seconds to check the channel and have to turn a knob or two. it doesnt take that long.
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"Boring"? "Common"? 1) It's all in the fingers; 2) I've gotten infinitely more gigs in the last almost 40 years of playing a clean, straight ahead foundation than I ever have putting too much schmutz in the signal chain.
 
#158
iiipopes said:
"Boring"? "Common"? 1) It's all in the fingers; 2) I've gotten infinitely more gigs in the last almost 40 years of playing a clean, straight ahead foundation than I ever have putting too much schmutz in the signal chain.
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Agreed with #1 to an extent, but #2 is fine for you but maybe not fine for someone else. Certainly wouldn't be fine for me, that's for sure. And I get plenty of gigs with the "schmutz" over the last 40 years, too.

I wish bass players would stop this "This is how I do it, so you should do it that way, too" attitude. We're not all alike, and we shouldn't be, nor should we have to. And doggone it, we should all be way more supportive of people who like to do things differently instead of siding with soundmen who are clearly looking to make their jobs easier.
 
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