Soundman insist on me going direct

[4Mal]

Another excellent joke post, rt!

Look, we're not talking about kids playing their first ever gig here. We are talking about a very experienced band who is HEADLINING a show. And Sansamps are so ubiquitous now that if a soundman can't deal with one, he's incompetent. As a soundman, you're assuming gross incompetence without even a shred of proof. And that's something I hate more than anything. And I really don't care how much money you have into your gear...if you screw with my show like that, I'll see to it that any band I'm in never calls you again, and I'll badmouth you to anyone who will listen.

This is where the mic and di option can save ya... If the mic'ed tone really does suck - hey we are bass players here, it isn't like the sound guys here don't have an affinity for bass... Then you have the di to rely on... Then we don't have to get into the whole vitriol and bad mouthing thing...

If it were the SA bddi or a paradriver, I personally would be cool with it. The RBI is another kettle of fish for me. In the case there is a ground loop, someone has to dig into the back of the bassplayer's rack and search out the ground lift, assuming there is one. That person is not going to be me... I pretty much draw the line on this side of the players amp unless I know the guy really well. Back in my rack rig days, I would not have wanted anyone else mucking about in my setup... On local guy is Ok with me Re-EQ'ing his amp on stage in small rooms but somebody new ? Not going to happen with me...

Look, I know there are some not great sound guys out there because I read about it here. The vast majority of the ones I run into do a good job. Some do a great job. The OP's real issue... He hasn't even talked over his concerns with the sound guy after multiple shows and he's a local... So as far as the sound guy knows, the OP is happy as a lark. Seems to me that should be an easy issue to fix... I made sure that I got to know the dominant local guy very early on. He gives me no grief at all... I also do not throw surprises at him. Communication... It's whats for dinner, eh?

Anyone seen Tony Levin recently... Ampeg on stage, radial to the foh... Not a guy with what I think of as boring tone...

 

[JimmyM]

It is always best to get your sound from your bass.

Might be fine for you, but it's not fine for everyone, and it's especially not fine for me. This is what I was referring to when I mention that bass players are very often the "What's good for me should be good for everybody" type.

 

[JimmyM]

Anyone seen Tony Levin recently... Ampeg on stage, radial to the foh... Not a guy with what I think of as boring tone...

And a few pedals in between them.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I have a nephew who is an SE who does large major venues all over the country. I am have sent him a message asking him for his opinion on why this is so common. I will post back when I hear from him.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Put your Sans Amp in the line.

So its bass guitar-Di, then DI split to stage box-FOH and Sans Amp-bass amp.

The signal to your amp is post Di and the signal to FOH is pre DI.

If you have an effects loop.....use that to put any pedal through and have the sound you want on stage and let FOH have the signal they want.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

The recording process is very different from live sound reinforcement. When laying down tracks, it is very common to run everything direct and dry including the guitars. That signal is then later pumped through a variety of amps and effects that can be tweaked to fit the song or completely changed from the original vision without retracking.

I agree, but I have never had a problem with a sound man not willing to take a signal off my SansAmp. It was just the only time I was asked to do direct. My point was to put in the context thay you and the SE have the same goal - to get a good sound. So address it like you are working together to achive the goal. Talk to him about what his expectations are and explain to him about the effects. See if you can work it out.
Maybe that is why I have never had the problem, I work with them rather than create an adverse atmosphere.

 

[RoadRanger]

Limiters work pretty well...gotta admit...

Yup, you got it .

 

[rtslinger]

I regularly do shows for crowds in excess of 2000 people, and a lot of them are handled by a single soundman. I would prefer that they weren't, but sometimes that's how it go. Still no excuse to cut the balls out of the bass player's sound when he doesn't do it to anyone else. But then again, it's typical of a lot of bass players...the old "What's good for me should be good for everybody" nonsense.

Waiting Jimmy, do you remember my first joke post about this I said you signature sound is your stage sound that makes you happy and the FOH is whatever makes the entire band mix sound best I never said cut your the balls out of the bass players sound ha ha ha

 

[totallyfrozen]

...people say let the soundguy do their job. yes. but a soundguy's job is to transmit YOUR sound to the audience, not what he thinks you should sound like.

I disagree. The soundman's job is to mix the sound so that it has the most clarity with enough volume to be heard by the entire audience. If this show is as big as it sounds like, then they didn't hire this soundguy from the local homeless shelter. The guy has been around the scene for a little while and people know him and for some reason, the bigger, better players have trusted this guy with their sound. He built a reputation. I'm willing to bet that's because he's proven that he has a good ear, a high level of mechanical aptitude, can fix problems, and get the job done. The soundman isn't your personal assistant beyotch to deliver YOUR greatness to the multitudes. That's what selling your CDs are for. The soundman is there to make the WHOLE show enjoyable for every patron attending. It's a show and you're one member of the cast.

I hate to state the obvious but I think we need to face some reality in in this thread too. Almost NEVER does a live show sound as clear or good as a recording. Almost ALWAYS there is a loss of fine detail of tone. This idea that these little tweaks we make with these $300 pedals really get heard clearly in a live concert with ambient noises, people talking, shrill guitar and vocal spikes, etc. is ridiculous. I know we all want to shape our tone to be great and we want everyone one to hear it but in nearly every show I've gone to from large concerts of Van Halen and Daughtry, etc. to little bar bands, coffee house jams, etc. the live sound is just a little bit messy. So I'm not really on-board with this whole idea that the soundman is cutting the balls off the bassist's sound. Playing live in a large venue with thousands of people attending is what cuts the balls off the entire band's tone.

 

[RoadRanger]

I had to DI for a recording session. The sound man asked me what sound I wanted. I told him "a big fat sound with teeth". He had me dialed in in about 1 minute and we were both happy.

Hopefully he was just dialing in your monitor mix and not recording the EQ'd result. No decent recording engineer would do that . Tracks are recorded raw and any EQ/compression/overdrive is done in mixdown - unless he's micing an SVT or somethin', and even then they usually record both in case the amp's sound doesn't work out.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Hopefully he was just dialing in your monitor mix and not recording the EQ'd result. No decent recording engineer would do that . Tracks are recorded raw and any EQ/compression/overdrive is done in mixdown - unless he's micing an SVT or somethin', and even then they usually record both in case the amp's sound doesn't work out.

Yes, but this guy got me the monitor sound I wanted, and in the final mix it still sounded that way, so I was happy.
I will add, that the band was paying for his time and the studio, so maybe he was more inclined to please.

 

[Bim1959]

Where the heck is it that you're located where the soundman gives the orders on how everything's going to be mic'ed up? Everywhere I've played the band or roadies set up the stage and the sound crew comes by and asks if you need a DI, if you're using the DI out of your amp or if you want to be mic'ed. The only way I've been told otherwise was when my KEYBOARD rig had a hum to it and they had to scare up 3 DIs and cords to DI up each keyboard.

It's not like you're causing any problems wanting your tone to go to the FOH and monitors unless your rig is causing extra noises to be introduced into the system. Put your foot down and let your soundman know that the Sansamp is part of your sound and that if he wont DI after it then he can mic your amp.

 

[totallyfrozen]

...At a festival, the SEs make more money than any individual performer except for the top two or three headlining acts - they ARE getting paid to be more professional. We should expect that...

Last time I checked, taking charge and setting boundaries was being professional. Letting yourself be pushed around by all the demanding musicians you have to deal with wouldn't be professional. What's not professional is encountering a situation or requirement that you don't like and letting yourself get all bent out of shape about it. The ability to adapt to the situation and find a solution or compromise that works is professional. The ability to adapt and overcome is professional. Getting annoyed because a soundman who has to manage the sound for an entire festival with thousands in attendance isn't catering to one musician's request isn't professional.

This is where people's careers start to slow down and hit the wall. Being flexible and easy to work with will give you a good name in the circles that matter. Being "that guy" who made an issue out of using his own DI box at a large festival will give you a bad name in the circles that matter.

Besides, where does this idea come from that someone who makes more money is somehow supposed to behave more professionally than someone else?
Last time I checked, the more money you get paid the more responsibility you have. Usually with more responsibility comes more authority. So, if anything, the soundman is running that part of the show and he has some right to tell the bands what to do and how (in regard to sound issues). That might not be the way it is but the bottom line is whoever is paying this guy, is his boss. If this particular band is not signing his check, then he doesn't work for them...he works for the festival.

 

[Febs]

Might be fine for you, but it's not fine for everyone, and it's especially not fine for me. This is what I was referring to when I mention that bass players are very often the "What's good for me should be good for everybody" type.

I think you may be misreading his post. I read it as saying "it's always best to get your sound from your bass." Not (as I think you read it) "the sound guy should take the bass sound directly from the bass."

 

[lfmn16]

Last time I checked, taking charge and setting boundaries was being professional. Letting yourself be pushed around by all the demanding musicians you have to deal with wouldn't be professional. What's not professional is encountering a situation or requirement that you don't like and letting yourself get all bent out of shape about it. The ability to adapt to the situation and find a solution or compromise that works is professional. The ability to adapt and overcome is professional. Getting annoyed because a soundman who has to manage the sound for an entire festival with thousands in attendance isn't catering to one musician's request isn't professional.

So it's OK to let yourself get pushed around by a demanding soundman? And it's professional for the soundman to get bent out of shape? And why can't the soundman adapt to the situation? The musician is the headliner, not the soundman.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Okay, I heard back from my nephew and here is what he said verbatim:
"If it were me, I would take the signal after the effects or even mic the amp. Otherwise it just sounds like a bass and not the sound the artist is going for / needing for the song. I would say the sound guy is used to DIing the bass because of dirty direct outs on bass heads. You have to let the artist achieve the sound they want.

So, the OP has a point, The sound guy is maybe inexperienced, but neither of them handled the conflict all that well.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I have never in over 40 years of gigging ever had an issue with FOH sound, stage monitors yes, my on stage bass sound never, so hear is a little personal ramble on my thought process.

My rig is my monitor....it is not a front of house sound, so it is not an isssue.
My current rig is 2x1x12 cabs....so how in any way shape or form is that sound or feel going to be represented through front of house?
So those sub bins, bins, Mid Range, horns etc are not even close to what i am using, so they will never ever represent what i get from my rig, in the sense of feel and any tone, to the audiance front of House.
Even my current amp, Aguilar Tone Hammer 500, is not going to contribute to FOH in the scheme of things, the amps they are using will do the job, so there is no way shape or form that my Tone Hammer is an issue for FOH, i could DI straight in to the stage box and take a monitor mix and it would not make a single bit of difference in the scheme of things for FOH.

What i want is a sound i am familier with, a sound that makes me feel comfortable with what i am playing, what FOH want is a signal, a clean signal that they can use within a frequency, within the dynamics of the room they are in...those dynamics are ever changing.

Like i said if i have a lovely punchy 8x10 sound then putting it through any PA is not going to represent what i feel coming from my cabs....say the PA is all 15s and 12s, how can they represent the punchy sound of my 10s when they are not using any.
So i stopped using big heads and 10" loaded cabs many years ago and settled on the little rig i use now because it is a consistant reliable setup for a comsistant reliable sound that i like.

I for my sins never ask for a sound check, i will do one of asked, but it is for the FOH enginners.....not my benifit because i know what my bass rig sounds like so i have no need to sound check it.
The sound, or line check is for FOH enginers as they do not know what my bass sound is and how they will mix it into the FOH.
So a line check to make sure they have a signal, a sound check if they ask for one, apart from that i take no real interest in what they do, i always thank them for their hard work and time as a matter of courtesy, even though it does not affect my on stage sound at all.

My issue with stage monitors is i do not want my bass in them, i will take the sound from my amp.
Back to what i said earlier, if i need stage monitors to hear my on stage sound then what is the point of using my rig? Again that 8x10 bass sound is not represented through a 12" or 15" single speaker stage monitor.....if it is then why am i using 8x 10s when a single 12 or 15 inch speaker can give me the tone and punch i want?
So i use 12s in my rig because it more often of not matches the 12" monitors kicking around the stage so it gives an even bass sound across the stage area.
Now because others want the bass in the monitors so they can hear it, whan i walk about the stage i do not have many 'dead spots', again the sound is consistant. But i will find a 'sweet spot' where i like the sound and go back to it when i want to get off on the sound, the sweet spot allows me to hear everthing clear that is going on around me on stage.....sojust stand in it and enjoy the sound.
Again, those monitors is powered by a completely different amp from what i use, so my amp is not even helping with an real EQ....my amp is a preamp in effect or just another effect in the stage line.

Now in a small venue where my amp is the sound, that is a different matter...when i am being judged on the stage sound i have as being what anyone FOH hears then i have to work on the sound and create a sound that works for the room, not the sound i ideally want...nice if the two are compatable, but for me not necessary as i want a bass sound that is audible and cuts through to represent the bass part within the sound.
If it sound like a bass then it is a bass....i have lost the count of how many times i have seen players get complimented on their sound by audience members and have the player run it down and say 'it was terrible', it was lacking this or lacking that, to much this or to much that, and tell them it was a terrible sound and could have been better.
So in effect the person complementing them knows nothing about what a good sound is....because from the guitarist point of view it was terrible, but from the compliments it was great.....so they are sort of implying that their audience cannot tell the difference......by replying to the complements in that manner....in effect the audience member can't tell a good sound from a bad sound.

It maybe just me, but i do what i have to do for the stage sound and let others do what they have to do, if others want it their way they can have it their way because i know it really makes no difference to me, but if it does to them let them have it.
It all opinion and speculation what a good 'sound' is, so i let them that want of they want to get into it.....me i am at the bar, in the dressing room, back at the hotel, eating dinner or whatever....what i am not doing is standing on a stage having a difference of opinion about sound.....but hey that's me.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

So many soundman apologists on a bass forum. .

Most of them aren't any worse than drummers........

 

[Jeff Bonny]

There are some gigs you do where you simply don't have a say in the matter, and you can either turn them down and lose out on a fat paycheck, or you do them and gird your loins. You live in a fantasy world if you think that every problem like this can be solved by a band hiring their own soundman. What if you get there and the house soundman refuses to let your soundman touch the board? It's happened to us a few times.

And unless you're the leader the sound man you hire can still tell you how it is if the leader agrees with him. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think THAT happens too.

 

[mellowinman]

Bottom line is, you are a MUSICAL PERFORMER. It is your job to get YOUR sound to the audience, and a sound engineer should work with you AS MUCH AS IS POSSIBLE to make that happen. Let the singers use the MICS they want to use, and DIAL IN THE EQ; if the drummer likes a certain kick mic, he should use it; there seems to be no question about micing the guitar amp EVER, and yes, if there is a signal the bass player wants to send, then freaking SEND IT.

I like to run our sound from the stage. I send keyboard in stereo; drums in stereo; and I put a lot of time and energy into the eq and compression settings.

I realize that in a big festival, I can't do that; but if I were the headliner, I would want to communicate ahead of time about these things, because they are PART OF THE SHOW.

They enhance the experience for the audience, and you can bet your sweet whatever baby that I have heard so from plenty of people. Audiences are not stupid. They know the difference between a quality show, and a 1/2 donkey one.