Soundman insist on me going direct

[Ender_rpm]

Hopefully he was just dialing in your monitor mix and not recording the EQ'd result. No decent recording engineer would do that . Tracks are recorded raw and any EQ/compression/overdrive is done in mixdown - unless he's micing an SVT or somethin', and even then they usually record both in case the amp's sound doesn't work out.

Sure they would. But they would clear it with the producer first to make sure that is in fact the bass sound they want n the finished product. Yes, you can "fix it in the mix", but if you know what sound you are going for before you hit "record" you can save a ton of time later.

 

[JimmyM]

And unless you're the leader the sound man you hire can still tell you how it is if the leader agrees with him. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think THAT happens too.

I have carte blanche as long as my volume isn't too loud.

 

[Downunderwonder]

In principle I'm all about the bassist getting his tone to FOH. Now let me play devil's advocate.

It is quite common for users of BDDI to crank both lows and highs. This results in the mids getting a horrible scoop to them. If you combine that with the "bassist" soundman applying his usual scoop you get boom/clank from hell. This may be why the soundman is gunshy of the BDDI.

Not anything that can't be sorted out with a proper discussion.

 

[JimmyM]

Yes, soundmen and producers would argue with Entwistle about that as well, and Chris Squire, too. Let the band be the band. They're the ones who have to eat the consequences, good or bad.

 

[lfmn16]

So, the OP has a point, The sound guy is maybe inexperienced, but neither of them handled the conflict all that well.

What is it that you think the OP did wrong?

 

[totallyfrozen]

So it's OK to let yourself get pushed around by a demanding soundman? And it's professional for the soundman to get bent out of shape? And why can't the soundman adapt to the situation? The musician is the headliner, not the soundman.

well, it didn't sound like the sound man was bent out if shape about it.

In any case, I guess we have to pick our battles. I do agree that if the bassist's tone comes from the SansAmp then there's simply no way around it--the SansAmp must be included in the signal chain. Whether or not it's worth it to start bad blood between the 2 people is another matter.

If it were me, I'd simply go with the suggestions already offered (i.e. send Out from the SansAmp to the In of his DI box).

The way I see it (and I could be wrong) whatever happens between my fingers and the DI is my business; whatever happens from the DI to FOH is the desk's business.



Sent from my iPhone 5c using TalkBass mobile app

 

[Downunderwonder]

What is it that you think the OP did wrong?

OP hasn't had it out with the guy. It's not that hard to have a civil conversation about tone getting to FOH.

 

[Mikaelbass]

Well I'm a sound guy...but mainly a bassist. I never let sound guys take a DI because that just isn't appropriate for the music I play with my band, and the whole band supports it.

I don't see how a DI signal could ever create the same presence/experience and tone of an SVT rig with its natural compression and grit? From working with a lot of these sound guys and being friends with them they OFTEN do what is easy/familiar to them. Makin them work harder for their bread ain't a bad thing.

I would suggest just making a clear point about the sound aesthetic of the band and how the bass is part of painting the picture.

 

[lfmn16]

OP hasn't had it out with the guy. It's not that hard to have a civil conversation about tone getting to FOH.

Gravedigger Dave said neither of them handled the conflict well. Since there was no confrontation, I'm trying to figure out what the OP did wrong.

 

[HolmeBass]

Last time I checked, taking charge and setting boundaries was being professional. Letting yourself be pushed around by all the demanding musicians you have to deal with wouldn't be professional. What's not professional is encountering a situation or requirement that you don't like and letting yourself get all bent out of shape about it. The ability to adapt to the situation and find a solution or compromise that works is professional. The ability to adapt and overcome is professional. Getting annoyed because a soundman who has to manage the sound for an entire festival with thousands in attendance isn't catering to one musician's request isn't professional.

This is where people's careers start to slow down and hit the wall. Being flexible and easy to work with will give you a good name in the circles that matter. Being "that guy" who made an issue out of using his own DI box at a large festival will give you a bad name in the circles that matter.

Besides, where does this idea come from that someone who makes more money is somehow supposed to behave more professionally than someone else?
Last time I checked, the more money you get paid the more responsibility you have. Usually with more responsibility comes more authority. So, if anything, the soundman is running that part of the show and he has some right to tell the bands what to do and how (in regard to sound issues). That might not be the way it is but the bottom line is whoever is paying this guy, is his boss. If this particular band is not signing his check, then he doesn't work for them...he works for the festival.

No, I reject this. No artist should be forced to perform without the tools and implements they feel are necessary for their performance, certainly not to placate an ornery technician *who's job is to enable the performance*!

And with authority and responsibility comes accountability. Letting these inflexible sound techs off the hook is BS. Like I said particularly when there are so many that DO accommodate the artists with aplomb, make it look it easy and sound great.

No artist should have to accommodate a sound technician. If you think that's the case, you have it all backwards. In this case, it's not the bassist who is being "that guy", it's the incompetent SE!

 

[bassfreakah]

Might be fine for you, but it's not fine for everyone, and it's especially not fine for me. This is what I was referring to when I mention that bass players are very often the "What's good for me should be good for everybody" type.

I hear you buddy it helps to have a great sound from you bass without any gimmicks. this is just my opinion tho.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I have carte blanche as long as my volume isn't too loud.

That's probably true for many sideman gigs. And you've held onto one sideman gig for enough years I gotta think you've figured out how not to piss off that particular leader. I was just saying in general terms (not at all to you specifically) that coming onto the soundman like he's working for you when he's really working for your boss might not give the results you were looking for.

 

[JimmyM]

That's probably true for many sideman gigs. And you've held onto one sideman gig for enough years I gotta think you've figured out how not to piss off that particular leader. I was just saying in general terms (not at all to you specifically) that coming onto the soundman like he's working for you when he's really working for your boss might not give the results you were looking for.

I am the nicest guy in the world on a gig, and if the soundman has a problem with what I'm doing, if they come to me and tell me in a reasonable fashion, we can always work something out. I might disagree and give them my reasons, but we can usually come to an understanding. If they start telling me how it is and insisting that I use their POS DI and bypass my pedals, then we're going to have a major problem. And I don't care if I'm the bandleader or not.

 

[MattZilla]

I guess it's time for a stereo setup. Split into his DI and into your rig, and drop the bass on your rig. Tell/ask-nicely the soundman to, in addition to the necessary clean clear bottom that he usually does, mic your amp and run it as he would a guitar or synth- it is part of your BANDS sound, they should care enough to help make that happen. How much does a stereo split box cost?

 

[JimmyM]

I loved to mic at one time, and I remember a few years ago doing a gig where the house soundman said he was getting distortion from my upright and B-15 with a mic (Heil PR40, not some POS or anything), and he asked if I minded if he ran me a DI/mic split. Of course, that was just natural upright rattles, but he came to me like a man and discussed it reasonably and said he'd only use it for the upright, so I said OK. During the show, I discovered that he had turned the mic off completely, and my house signal was all Countryman on both electric and upright. Blech! I told the monitor soundman about it during intermission, and he said, "I'll tell him to turn it back on. You should be getting what you want since you're the band for the headliner." I didn't want to make waves, so I told him he didn't have to. But I vowed from then on that I would never take crap from another soundman ever. Unfortunately, a handful of soundmen along the way since then decided to give me a hard time about micing, and I finally dropped the mic and got a REDDI so they and I both could finally be happy. So while the idea of running a split DI/mic signal is an attractive compromise on the surface, all it takes is a soundman with a dick attitude to screw that idea up.

And BTW, the vast majority of soundmen who do stuff like that have proven to be completely incompetent when I go out in the crowd to listen. Meanwhile the best ones have always been the ones who leave me alone to do what I want.

 

[jj4001]

And BTW, the vast majority of soundmen who do stuff like that have proven to be completely incompetent when I go out in the crowd to listen. Meanwhile the best ones have always been the ones who leave me alone to do what I want.

This is exactly my experience, too. Sound engineers who understand why I want my cab mic'ed pretty much are also the ones who have the music sounding great out in the house all night. Sound-dudes who insist on their way or the highway, well, not so much. Coincidence? I doubt it.

 

[oysteivi]

DI? Sure.

DI before my effects chain? No, those effects are part of the music.

 

[Big_Daws]

just like oysteivi said....not before the FX chain he doesn't!....lol

 

[The Regulator]

I don't see how a DI signal could ever create the same presence/experience and tone of an SVT rig with its natural compression and grit?

I agree, what is the purpose of spending thousands of dollars on tone shaping tools like an amp and effects only to be asked to plug in direct?

 

[lokikallas]

That can happen. One local sound guy I know, let a regional act's SE at his board and replaced 4 18's for the glory of it... So that cut's a couple of different ways. I have a pretty good understanding of my systems limits. Unless I know and trust the SE, I am unlikely to let his hands on the board.

If a gig comes up with that as a criteria, genre depending I will probably turn it down. New grass guys, their SE no prob. DJ JoMama and The reggae AllStars.. Or Sven Death and his Metal Maniacs... Doubtful...

I always say "you can touch the board, but I've got my hands on the limiters".