Double Bass SoundPost Position.. Tight D and G strings..

[bassfacer22]

Hi Guys,
I want to know experiences anybody has had when you move the soundpost, Would it be a possible solution to making the strings feel looser?

Would the soundpost cause certain notes to be dead? or not as loud as the other notes on the same string?

When I play my low G on the E-string or the B on the A-string the notes aren't as loud as the open G and the high B note on the G-string.. what gives??


I'm pretty sure my soundpost is not in the correct position because the string tension feels off on the top two strings.. as in the top 2 strings (D and G) are too tight compared to the low strings (E and A)

Would moving the soundpost resolve this?

(it's also a portable smaller bass so the soundpost is really just a Cello soundpost essentially because it's an Eminence Bass)

ideas?


thanks

 

[Ortsom]

The position of the SP does not influence string tension (=defined as static longitudinal force in the string), for a particular string only tuning & scale do.

Are they matched strings? (So not something like a weich E & A, + stark D & G?)

Maybe you mean perceived string tension, which may mean something like the perceived resistance the fingers feel when you pizz a string, or push it down onto the FB. That is also influenced by string height, FB scoop & string flexibility. SP position can influence string height a bit, for the D & particularly G. But you should not use the SP to adjust string heights. The SP should be set to optimise instrument response (& ensure carrying capacity of the G-side), and then the notches in the bridge crest & height adjusters to set string height.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Hi Guys,
I want to know experiences anybody has had when you move the soundpost, Would it be a possible solution to making the strings feel looser?

Would the soundpost cause certain notes to be dead? or not as loud as the other notes on the same string?

When I play my low G on the E-string or the B on the A-string the notes aren't as loud as the open G and the high B note on the G-string.. what gives??


I'm pretty sure my soundpost is not in the correct position because the string tension feels off on the top two strings.. as in the top 2 strings (D and G) are too tight compared to the low strings (E and A)

Would moving the soundpost resolve this?

(it's also a portable smaller bass so the soundpost is really just a Cello soundpost essentially because it's an Eminence Bass)

ideas?


thanks

Do you have a relationship with a luthier?

Yes, sound post fit and position can affect the feel of an instrument, but you have to look at everything from nut to end pin as well. If you don't have somebody, find a luthier who plays and knows what they are doing.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

That, and you also have to account for the limitations and quirks inherent to the Eminence design.

Meta question: is the neck straight? Check it with a straightedge. The wood they used in those necks can be pretty punky.

 

[bassfacer22]

Well the issue I'm having is I am too sensitive to the tension of the D and G strings and they actually cause me to not be able to play what I would like to play.. The tension hinders the music..

You're not supposed to have to fight your instrument to make music right?

I just want to have the volume be the same across the strings and figure out why the lower fatter thicker strings are actually easier to play and looser than the top two thinner strings

I'm having some notes on the bass that sound too strong compared to others... Like how when you play a note and it's really louder than the others because of the overtones or the resonance of those notes..


Make sense?

Is it so much to ask for a bass that works??

I am also traveling so I can only see certain luthiers.. Like one in Copenhagen and he seems to not know too much about the portable basses and hasn't given me a solution yet for this issue..

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The top of the Eminence can not moved as much up and down as a real double bass because the Eminence body is smaller and more narrow than the body of a real double bass. That might put the Eminence feelingwise in between a solid body EUB (top doesn't move at all) and a real double bass.
On my Clevinger solid body EUB I have Spirocore Weich 3/4 (!) and they are hard to play, same with Spiro Mittel 4/4. Harder than on my double bass with a longer scale (two inches more) that was string up with Spiro Mittel 4/4 when I got it. I tried the synthetic core Innovation Braided that I usually play on my double bass on the Clevinger and it was much nicer to play. Larger diameter on the higher strings and softer feel. I only put them down because I need them as a replacement set for my double bass. Evah Pirazzi Weich are similar, but I like the Braided a bit better.

Clevinger recommends Obligato, also synthetic core strings.

So it might make sense to switch to synthetic core strings for the Eminence. You might miss a little bit of power, but you can play them the whole day and night without getting blisters.

 

[bassfacer22]

Thanks for the feedback,

I think the synthetic string may not be for me as I remember trying the obligatos on a real bass before (not the eminence) and if I am thinking of the right strings, they were the ones that rolled too much when you play them pizz..

I do have a set of Evah Pirazzi Solo tuned set I could try ...

I'm not sure if those are steel or synthetic core strings.

I've noticed that pushing down the bridge with my thumb which angles it down towards the tailpiece seems to loosen the string feel a lot..

I guess that is messing with the intonation though or spacing of the frets.

So moving the soundpost further down or to the side, will not change string tension then? So I should just try different strings?


If I put up a recording I think it may help show it.. I'll try to do that in the next few days if that can show it..

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Try the Evah Solos in orchestra tuning. They are synthetic core strings. The looser tension might be nice for the Eminence. Even the tension might be closer to my Innovation Braided than the Evah Weich. At least worth a try. They will feel different than the strings you used before. Give them and yourself a week to check if you can adapt to the new feel.

You can also experiment with your current strings by moving the bridge a bit up and try if the feeling gets better. If it does, the distance of bridge foot to soundpost is what you want, so moving the soundpost down by the amount you have moved the bridge up should give you almost the same feel with the original scale. Only the tension that drops a bit by moving the bridge up gets back to the tension you have now.

But it might be that the rib distance to the bridge foot is so small that it might act like a soundpost too (similar distance).
Well, it's the body of an Eminence, not of one a double bass. If it gets wider it's less portable.

 

[Ortsom]

I know the Eminence only from pictures; there should be experts on this instrument on TB (EUB section), and I hope they comment. Nevertheless:

I've noticed that pushing down the bridge with my thumb which angles it down towards the tailpiece seems to loosen the string feel a lot..

• Like a normal DB, the Eminence has nicks in the f-holes. The bridge feet should be centred between the inner nicks, i.e. the inner nicks should longitudinally align with the mid-line of the soles.
  
• With the feet in that position, the specs say it has a scale of 105cm, and that determines where the crest of the bridge should be.
  
• I suspect that the Eminence is also designed to have the back of the bridge perpendicular to the top (like on a DB, but I'm not certain this also applies to the Eminence). You could use a plastic set square to verify that, or basically anything with a square angle.
  
• In this orientation the adjusters should also turn most easily (assuming everything is straight & the bridge soles are cut correctly).
  
• You should also be able to feel the proper balance point (assuming the bridge soles are cut correctly): it is the place where it is just as easy to pull the bridge up a little bit (FB-wards), as it is to push it down a little bit (TP-wards). But that assumes the geometry is designed correctly, i.e. that the bridge is bisecting the breakover angle, and if I look at the pictures on the Eminence website, that may not be the case. On an Eminence you may have to push down the bridge crest from time to time, as it may creep upwards (experts may correct me).
• If the bridge crest has crept upwards, the (average) load point on the G-sole has also moved upwards, and has therefore changed wrt the SP position. That can influence instrument character, and might cause what you describe as 'too much tension' and 'tonal imbalance'.
  
• As an aside: is, in the Eminence, the SP best above or below the bridge? DoubleMIDI's post above suggests it is below, in the conventional location, but in this geometry it might well be best above (where the back is softer). I'm sure someone has figured that out.

There is an Eminence mega thread, best read that.

I guess that is messing with the intonation though or spacing of the frets.

Doesn't matter. No frets, use ears.

So moving the soundpost further down or to the side, will not change string tension then?

No, that will not change string tension. It will change instrument response, which should be optimised via the SP position.

So I should just try different strings?

It may come to that, and (as always) DoubleMIDI's advice is excellent in my opinion. D’Addario Helicore are in the factory specs, and I believe those age rather quickly (is that maybe the issue?).
But first:

• What are your string heights?
• Is your bridge located properly in the lateral direction?
  
• Is your FB not warped? (look at the strings, those are straight)

It might be too far towards the G-side, causing the G & D to be relatively higher above the FB, making them feel 'tight'.

the rib distance to the bridge foot is so small that it might act like a soundpost too

There's an f-hole in-between.

is the neck straight?

If you push down a string onto the FB, at both the nut and at the end of the FB, at the same time, you'll see the FB curving away from the string, to a maximum roughly in the heel area. Is that maximum relief bigger on the G-side than on the E-side? That too could cause what you describe as 'too much tension' & 'fight your instrument' on that side.

 

[bassfacer22]

How ridiculous is this,
I took off the bridge feet and noticed they were reversed!

I switched them to the correct sides and it slightly felt better.. How about that for setup overlooks..

I will continue to move the bridge around more and see the results.. But I really like steel strings spirocores.. I don't think I'll like the Evah strings.. I will try them..

The fingerboard is good, it's only 6 months +- old..

I have the strings heights very low.. Yet the strings feel tight.. If I resolve this I'll post up the solution..

 

[Ortsom]

Yes... Before one reassembles the bridge, best take a square to see where the feet go. Pencil "E" & "G" on the soles.

Now "new FB" is not necessarily the same as "good FB", and if this thing is so new: can't you go back to the seller with this? Throughout this thread you have received several suggestions that might resolve your issue, and I for one am running out of ideas...

 

[bassfacer22]

I've moved the bridge around and pulled and pushed and changed feet etc.. there is just something wrong with the bass I guess.. I can get it to feel ok for a minute but I think the bridge is just too finicky and it's pulling up or something from pulling the strings too hard maybe.... this is not a full size bridge, and not a full size bass so I think the bridge is pulling up when I'm playing.. I made some videos but I have slow internet right now, when I get some faster internet I'll upload them if anybody cares to show it..

I also put a lot of lead from a pencil on the bridge notches so maybe the strings are easy to slide and the bridge is easy to slip up...

My only other option is to try less tension strings.. like the Evah's... but I really want Steel strings..


and tight strings aren't going to allow that..


I haven't moved the soundpost yet.. but everybody says that doesn't really change string tension..



Why would just the top 2 strings be tight.. and not the lower fatter thicker strings? it's so odd..


(oh and if anybody is wondering how Loose the strings need to be, it's because I need to be able to play Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen solo like..)

 

[Ortsom]

Ah well, then it's easy: you just need to graft NHOP's hands & brain onto your body.

But before you do that, can you please post a picture of your instrument, seen purely from the side, so that neither top nor back of the bridge are visible, but including the saddle (= end-nut), top, and up to the fingerboard? And maybe another one showing where the SP is.

And maybe your strings are too low. 6--> 9mm (G --> E) is common advice, for a good FB, but depending on the strings (what strings are they, please) you can go higher.

 

[bassfacer22]

 

[bassfacer22]

Sound post is around here.. But I'll try to take a picture if I can later tonight

 

[Ortsom]

Ta. Position of the bridge looks about right, as does SP position. Hadn't realised it was a 5-str, not that it should matter. I can't see anything wrong with the FB either, at least not on the pic. Looks quite slick actually.

Only thing: your string height seems terribly low. This is not a bass guitar. Try putting it up higher, say 6 --> 10 mm or 7 --> 10mm (G --> B).

And what's with the dust cloth? Seems a bit overkill for damping the afterlength. (Not likely the cause of your problem though.)

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you want steel core strings, try to tune your existing strings (whichever they are, I don't think you mentioned it before) down by a half tone and probably also by a whole tone. If this gives you a better feel, then lighter strings of the same family (when downtuned by a half tone) or downtuned Solo strings might work for you. A cheap way to simulate how new strings might work without buying them. Maybe a downtuned Solo string for the G and a light string for the D work better than two downtuned Solos.

We only can give you some ideas, but you have to try them. And finally you might need to find a luthier to check what's wrong.

For these fast NHØP solos the action has to be very low. Not that I like that way of playing and even less the setup for that style, but the Copenhagen jazz bassists that play that style have a really low action 4 to 5 mm on the G. I once tried one bass set up that way and hardly could catch the string to pull it, but I think they rather touch the string and use a lot of amplification. And the instrument doesn't sound natural that way.

If you want really low tension steel strings, get Super Sensitive Pinnacle. But with such a low action they might rattle a lot, since they have the tension of a gut string. Sound is a bit similar to Spiros.

Check the published tension of your strings. If they are equal tension or higher tension on the higher strings, it's not the bass but the strings. A growing tension by about 1 Kp towards the next lower string works well for jazz.

And put that damn Evah Solos on the Eminence! NOW!!!

Leave them there and play them for a week. After that we can discuss further.
And if you go on tour, take these Evahs with you.

 

[Ortsom]

Please clarify: Is this an acoustic issue, or is your perception biased by what you hear coming out of your loudspeaker?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I was away from home the last days and didn't load the pictures before because of a very limited monthly transfer limit on my mobile.

Well, I think the soundpost is a bit too close to the bridge. To test it move the bridge towards the fingerboard by about half an inch up to an inch. If it gets better the soundpost should be moved (but also secured afterwards, because you have a removable neck instrument and the soundpost might fall if it's not secured on top and bottom).

Do you have anything between bridge and top like a Realist pickup? If so, remove it and put the bridge a bit more perpendicular to the top.
If the string angle at the bridge is not approximately equal on both sides, a raised saddle might help keep the bridge in place.

If the soundpost is too close to the bridge the upper strings might be underrepresentated in the amplified signal. I had that once with my acoustic double bass that needed two element pickups before and worked with one element pickups after moving the soundpost away from the bridge foot.

 

[bassfacer22]

The ugly yellow cloth is gone..

I currently have spirocores weichs..

So unfortunately I'm at the lowest tension..

I also only have this problem with the D and G strings.. The lower E,A,B strings are loose! How odd is that?

I actually would play on any height action as long as the string feels loose.. If it's 10mm high as long as it s loose and let's me play the string with 2 or 3 fingers method right hand pizz at 16th notes at 100bpm easily..

Anyway I can put on the Evah strings when I get back home in 15 days.. Only then I can try the Evah Solo 4-string set..

But then maybe I should only use the D and G strings..


Has anyone seen Eddie Gomez strings when he plays? Notice how they vibrate insanely and have big loose feel? It almost looks like when he pulls an open string, it almost hits the other string next to it..

I bet that is the kind of loose feeling I'm looking for..

I will say I don't like the obligato sloose feel though, so I'm not looking for that..

Also one more thing, I just remembered Brian Bromberg uses spirocores strings.. And look at how fast he plays them.. this has to be some weird setup issue..

Soundpost is too high or the bridge isn't cut right, or the nut is moving.. Who knows!?

But maybe changing the strings will help..

I will try to down tune the strings and see if that is the feeling I'm looking for..


When I get fast internet in the next 2 days I'll post up video and you can see what I'm trying to do.. And hear it..

Thanks tor all the ideas so far..