Double Bass SoundPost Position.. Tight D and G strings..

[bassfacer22]

Please clarify: Is this an acoustic issue, or is your perception biased by what you hear coming out of your loudspeaker?

This feeling is also without the speaker.. So it's just the instrument if that's what you mean

 

[bassfacer22]

Something interesting about that, is that on the full circle pickup, the lower strings were underrepresented and the higher strings were loud..

What would that mean if the lower strings were loose and not as loud as the top strings?? Does that help tell you what's going on with my instrument?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Something interesting about that, is that on the full circle pickup, the lower strings were underrepresented and the higher strings were loud..

What would that mean if the lower strings were loose and not as loud as the top strings? Does that help tell you what's going on with my instrument?

I have no idea.
But I only used a Shadow SH-950 at that time (I tried it once with the E-side element only but the higher strings had too less volume amplified) and that one had too much pressure (both slots a bit too narrow) which I learned after the sound post was moved and I widened the slots a very little bit.

Even if you currently use Spiro Weich 4/4, you can still go a bit lower tension (like tuning down the Weich about a half tone) using downtuned Spiro Solo 4/4 for the upper strings if you want to stay with Spiros. But it would also be a good idea to try the downtuned Evah Solos, maybe only on G or G and D, when you get back.

If the soundpost is too long it's definitely a job for a luthier. Same for soundpost position. I think your current soundpost to bridge foot distance is similar to mine before it has been moved.
But moving the soundpost away can give you a less punchy attack that you might miss if you are used to it.
It also took me a while going from Spiro Mittel 4/4 to Evah Weich and Innovation Braided on my acoustic bass. I did like the softer feel from the first day, but it took a while to become friends with the new sound. That may happen with your Evahs too.

And there are still Dominants, which you might want to try as downtuned Dominant Solos for G and D, since they sound like a bit more mellow Spiro. But there is always the risk of breaking with them. But this money might be better invested checking the Eminence by a luthier.

 

[Ortsom]

What would that mean

It means there is something wrong in the actuation of the PU by the strings. Probably a geometrical issue (location of the PU wrt: string locations / orientation of string vibration modes / plate vibration modes).

I see you now have 2 PUs in there, a FC on the low side & a ¿wing PU? on the high side. You can try if taking out the wing PU changes the feel. Slim chance that's it though, but it might. And another wild thought: Is your bass bar OK?

Always try & test without any amplification. The instrument first has to perform well acoustically, i.e. the sound and/or the vibrations in the instrument have to be pleasing & to your liking. If that is sorted-out, effectively picking-up those instrument vibrations & converting those to an electric signal is the next chapter. (Unless you pick-up the vibrations directly from the string, via a magnetic or optical PU for instance, then the vibes in the instrument body may not be the prime focus.)

As I said, I know nothing about the Eminence specifically, and DoubleMIDI's suggestions on strings make sense.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Something interesting about that, is that on the full circle pickup, the lower strings were underrepresented and the higher strings were loud..

What would that mean if the lower strings were loose and not as loud as the top strings?? Does that help tell you what's going on with my instrument?

In my experience, the Full Circle is very sensitive to the tension of the strings, and within a certain tension range speaks more clearly when the strings are tighter rather than looser. This is why I use a higher tension E string from a different set than the A-D-G strings on my basses.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

His main concern is the tight string feeling (also acoustically). The bridge wing pickup on the G-side might influence this, so he should remove it to compare and find if the tight feeling gets less, but I still think the soundpost position has a larger influence on this.

I just checked the distance between lower bridge foot edge to upper soundpost edge on my 4/4 acoustic double bass and the gap is about 23 mm wide (not easy to measure without the right tools, so it could differ a bit).
On a 3/4 instrument it might be one or two mm less.

 

[Ortsom]

I believe the rule of thumb is 1 - 1.5 x SP dia. DB SP ~ 18-21mm.

But that is for a normal DB, and it's not necessarily sensible to use normal DB values in an Eminence. The geometry is totally different. Real Eminence experience is required & I don't have that. If the thing were mine I'd at least try it with the SP above the bridge. (That might be total rubbish, but at least I'd have tried it.) And also, it is quite possible the SP should go down even further, and the test you suggested moving up the bridge would help diagnosing that. But the OP may already have tried that; when he said "I've moved the bridge around and pulled and pushed and changed feet etc.." I think that's what he meant.

Anyway, SP location to be determined by optimal instrument response (wherever that location is, IF it is anywhere else from where it is now); PU to follow later. PU sound should not be considered in assessing instrument response. I'm re-stressing that to avoid dealing with a convoluted problem, wherein the PU response is misleading us.

Btw; the pics show that the OP has weich EADG complemented by a mittel B, similar to you Chris.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I am a player first and last and most aspects of luthierie are as foreign to me as voodoo. That said, aside from string tension/stiffness, the other place I look for for issues relating to pizz string balance is string heights in relation to each other. In my case, I ended up developing a relationship with a luthier and over a period of several visits we ended up noting the bridge cut I prefer for the balance I like. As he wisely pointed out, this is more a matter of perceived tension than actual tension, but the effect on the music making is the same.

 

[bassfacer22]

I have no idea.
But I only used a Shadow SH-950 at that time (I tried it once with the E-side element only but the higher strings had too less volume amplified) and that one had too much pressure (both slots a bit too narrow) which I learned after the sound post was moved and I widened the slots a very little bit.

I also have the dual Shadow element pickup.. and it did the same thing.. it just got really quite and clicky when I used both of the elements at the same time..

[/QUOTE]

If the soundpost is too long it's definitely a job for a luthier. Same for soundpost position. I think your current soundpost to bridge foot distance is similar to mine before it has been moved.
But moving the soundpost away can give you a less punchy attack that you might miss if you are used to it.

so it will deaden the sound? or make it even more boomy? or thumpy?"

And there are still Dominants, which you might want to try as downtuned Dominant Solos for G and D, since they sound like a bit more mellow Spiro. But there is always the risk of breaking with them. But this money might be better invested checking the Eminence by a luthier.

I've never tried the Dominant strings.. why would they break on me? they are not steelcore??

It means there is something wrong in the actuation of the PU by the strings. Probably a geometrical issue (location of the PU wrt: string locations / orientation of string vibration modes / plate vibration modes).

Yes! this exactly, there is something definitely wrong with the Actuation of the pickup by the strings!... that's what I can't figure out..

I see you now have 2 PUs in there, a FC on the low side & a ¿wing PU? on the high side. You can try if taking out the wing PU changes the feel. Slim chance that's it though, but it might. And another wild thought: Is your bass bar OK?
As I said, I know nothing about the Eminence specifically, and DoubleMIDI's suggestions on strings make sense.

I think the Bass Bar is ok.. I have a Full Circle on the bass side bridge foot and then the Schertler Capsule pickup... I have both the Dual Capsule version and the Single Capsule Version..

I do not have these pickups on my bass right now, but I do have a Realist, BassMaxx, and Shadow with me also right now..

At my home, I have the David Gage pickup that goes under adjuster.. (forgot the name) and the Ehrlund triangle mic, and an AMT mic and I'm sure one or two more pickups like the old Fishman BP-100 etc..

In my experience, the Full Circle is very sensitive to the tension of the strings, and within a certain tension range speaks more clearly when the strings are tighter rather than looser. This is why I use a higher tension E string from a different set than the A-D-G strings on my basses.

Yes... this exactly also! Apparently I am now too sensitive to the instrument and the way it feels.. I
am having the issue because the top two strings are tighter and are stronger than the bottom..

I believe the rule of thumb is 1 - 1.5 x SP dia. DB SP ~ 18-21mm.

I'd at least try it with the SP above the bridge. (That might be total rubbish, but at least I'd have tried it.) And also, it is quite possible the SP should go down even further, and the test you suggested moving up the bridge would help diagnosing that. But the OP may already have tried that; when he said "I've moved the bridge around and pulled and pushed and changed feet etc.." I think that's what he meant.

So far the best method I've found to get the feeling I'm looking for is by pushing the front of the bridge down with my thumb in between the A and D stings.. and then the bridge is not straight 90 angle to the body.. its slanting downward towards the floor.. which of course makes the string height lower and for some reason feel looser.. which is the feeling I'm looking for..

Btw; the pics show that the OP has weich EADG complemented by a mittel B, similar to you Chris.

Yes i have that setup..

I am a player first and last and most aspects of luthierie are as foreign to me as voodoo. That said, aside from string tension/stiffness, the other place I look for for issues relating to pizz string balance is string heights in relation to each other. In my case, I ended up developing a relationship with a luthier and over a period of several visits we ended up noting the bridge cut I prefer for the balance I like. As he wisely pointed out, this is more a matter of perceived tension than actual tension, but the effect on the music making is the same.

Probably my biggest problem right there.. I need to develop a much better relationship with a Luthier that will finally tell me why I feel the way I do and what the instrument is doing to cause my hardship to play the music I just want to play in my head! ..

Anyway, I will show a video or let you guys know if moving the soundpost lower solves this.. or just by putting the Evah Strings on will...

Basically you guys have all given me really good advice.. and I really do think the setup is the problem.. the tension of the strings is just clearly tighter and louder on the top 2 strings.. I have had a couple of different luthiers even tell me that the lower strings were too loose! haha.. but I want the loose feeling of the top 2 strings to be as loose as the bottom 3!

anyway I'll experiment one more time with trying the bridge up higher than the F-hole centers and then report..

and then I will move the Bridge over closer to the E F-hole (the bass side) and see if the tension changes..

hope that makes sense.. I will say this, I have noticed after I take my bass to a luthier, I notice the bridge always seems too far to the E-side of the bass.. like if you look at the fingerboard straight on from the front, the strings seem to be too far over to the Bass side (E F-hole side) and you can clearly see the strings are all too far to the bass side of the fingerboard..

you guys are helping and giving me good ideas

 

[bassfacer22]

Sorry it's a long post but read the post before this as it answers a lot for those who missed it..

but here is some video showing a little bit of why I need the strings to feel loose.. I want to play with ease, not strain..

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I know it's not the answer you wanted, but after seeing that clip, I'd be looking to making the lower strings tighter rather than the upper strings looser and then just learn to adjust to the tension. The lowest two sound too indistinct and flabby for my taste, while the g and D sound fine. Also keep in mind that the low strings on any bass with around a 42" scale or less are really an insufficient length to produce the fundamental correctly. I've never payed a low B that I actually liked, and I usually prefer the Spiro stark E to any other E string out there in spite of its quirks.

 

[Don Kasper]

This is why I use a higher tension E string from a different set than the A-D-G strings on my basses.

I would agree - I also use a heavier tension E string, (a Spirocore Mittel LONG E, as I have a C-Extension), mixed with Weich A, D, G, on my Juzek; on my 5&6 string slabs, I use a .135 low B string, as well (a very heavy gauge B, in that world.)
OP - Here is my scientifically unsubstantiated thinking and experience - heavier, or tighter low(er) strings, (for pizzicato playing), seem to "store", and have available, more potential energy, i.e. they respond faster and deeper. YES - this requires more initial effort to get that energy released, but the immediacy and depth/presence is well worth the effort. (If I were playing exclusively Arco, I might have a different approach regarding tension, BTW.)
I think your search for "looseness" MAY be part of the issue. IMO. And, the instrument (the Eminence), may also be complicating your quest, as it may not be reacting as a typical 3/4 (full-sized) doublebass might. ( I have zero experience with the Eminence.)
My $.03.
Good Luck.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Sounds like there is more acoustic than amplified tone in the video. In that case the resonance for the lower note is missing because of the small body. The Eminence generally sounds like a tenor-bass viola da gamba to me, only with strings tuned much too low. And this is pretty much what I hear in your video as well. BTW, the 6-string tenor-bass viola da gamba has the double bass D and G as its lowest strings, often with a weak D.

Amplified you will either get a sound that misses the lows or a sound that only gets the string vibration and sounds too electrical. A mix wouldn't be better.

After moving the soundpost away from the bridge foot the sound is less direct, a bit more distant. Like going from listening close to the instrument and then going a few meters away. As I said, the punch/attack is less. I was missing that first but adapted to it after a few months.

For the tight feel: raising the saddle is like lowering the string height.
On my solid body Clevinger I have no raised saddle, similar string angle at the bridge to my acoustic double bass and the strings all feel very tight (Spiro Weich 3/4 (!) on 105 cm vibrating string length). On my solid body Stagg EUB the strings are less bend at the bridge and with same string length and similar strings (Presto Balance Hybrid Medium) the feel is looser. So the smaller bending angle might help to loosen the tight feel of the strings and you can get that by raising the strings at the saddle.

Strings that stretch easier feel less tight but may be limited in response when plucked hard. Evah Weich and Obligato stretch a lot, Innovation Braided in between Spiral steel core (Spiros) and PEEK (Evah, Obligato, Zyex).

Dominants have a monofiber synthetic core (Nylon) that easily breaks if an edge (i.e. from the metal winding) damages the core only slightly. Might be too powerful in your case.

And I agree with Chris that the D and G are the only strings that sound good as they are. If you try to loosen them, the whole instrument might go towards an electric bass guitar sound.

I once tried a lot of cheap asian and romanian 5-string acoustic double basses, 3/4 and 4/4, looking for a 3/4 instrument with a good sound on the E-string (as a second instrument that I may use where I don't want to bring my German carved bass). The low B was not so important to me because I play a high C.
None of the 3/4 instruments, ply hybrid or carved had a good resonance on the E, only one of the 4/4 had (it was a hybrid asian). Of course there are better instruments, but it shows, that even regular 3/4 instruments have low strings that won't work well. Thomastik only makes a low C for 3/4 sized instruments because it works a bit better for the shorter scale, the low B is only made by them for the longer scale 4/4.
So if the normal 3/4 instruments were still a bit weak on the E (which is often solved by a higher tension E string), what can you expect from an even smaller body. The lower strings sound weak because only the higher harmonics get the resonance of the body.

The only good thing from a resonating top EUB is that strings start better when playing arco.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

So far the best method I've found to get the feeling I'm looking for is by pushing the front of the bridge down with my thumb in between the A and D stings.. and then the bridge is not straight 90 angle to the body.. its slanting downward towards the floor.. which of course makes the string height lower and for some reason feel looser.. which is the feeling I'm looking for..

I used to do this when I played with steel strings. It gave a softer feel, but is probably structurally unsound, and I think, gave a slightly lower sound level. Since I have changed to first Rotosound 4000's, and then gut strings, I have not felt the need to do so. Second the experience that moving the soundpost closer to the bridge gives more overtones/attack, and a slightly firmer feel, and vice versa.

 

[Ortsom]

Wow this topic gets hot... just a few remarks:

• 'Lifeline' might be the name you're looking for. You have an impressive set of PUs.
• In your video, I too prefer the sound of your D & G over the lower ones. (And I too have a high c rather than a low B.)
  
• But I suspect you recorded the sound in that video by placing your (micro)phone in front of your amp. If anything, the sound in your video is a testimony to how well your PU & microphone work; it contains little information about the feeling you described earlier, if any. At least not that I can discern (and maybe others can't either, seeing that most seem to prefer the strings you have a problem with, or suggest you increase the tension in the lower ones). This is why I suggested (now 3x) to not use amp at all in assessing the acoustic qualities of the instrument. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, if you did not use an amp. Then I stand corrected & amazed at the low-end volume produced by such a small box, and will proceed to buy an Eminence straight away.) Indeed, that means that you cannot post a recording of your assessment. That is how it is, in my mind. You have to describe it, show it to your luthier in person, or fix it yourself.

So far the best method I've found to get the feeling I'm looking for is by pushing the front of the bridge down with my thumb in between the A and D stings.. and then the bridge is not straight 90 angle to the body.. its slanting downward towards the floor.. which of course makes the string height lower and for some reason feel looser.. which is the feeling I'm looking for..

Well, that is why I asked for the picture from the side; to see that the centre-line of the bridge is bisecting the breakover angle. In that position the bridge is balanced, and receives only forces in the plane of the centre line & the lateral. If the crest moves up a bit, there is also a force component perpendicular to that plane, and that I have heard before being associated with symptoms as you describe. (Is why I raised it in #9.)

But in the pic you posted the bridge position looks roughly OK. But was that picture taken right after you pushed the bridge down? So is that in the position wherein it feels OK, or is that the normal resting position wherein you have the problems? If that is not the long-term stable resting position, a luthier should fix your soles and/or end-nut height to make it is. If the bridge crest creeps up, the end-nut (saddle) is to low (see #9).

Here's another wild stab. You said the FB is new, and that may mean it was replaced. If so, is this one thicker than the original one? And in that case, was the end-nut raised by the same amount? If not, that might be the cause of imbalance.

Good luck.

 

[Don Kasper]

This is why I suggested (now 3x) to not use amp at all in assessing the acoustic qualities of the instrument.

Yes. I think this may be the most important missing piece of information. The pickup & amp can't really compensate for the possible inherent unevenness - in fact, they may be magnifying those inherent balance/volume issues.
The acoustic balance and volume issues (across all strings) is more important than the "string looseness" issues, at this point.
Soundpost & SET UP is Square One, IMO.
Good Luck.

 

[bassfacer22]

I'm using a qsc speaker with the bass for this video..





At around 1 minute at the end of the video, I turn off the preamp and you can hear for 2 seconds what the bass sounds like without amplification..

I can make another video if you all are curious to what it sounds like without amplification..

By the way, this is just recorded with an iPad..

I do have a zoom h4n recorder I could use but the sound seems to be pretty clear with the iPad..

And the fingerboard is the one that came originally with the bass..

Everything everybody has said so far is relevant..

I do remember the bass had the nut shaved down on the G string.. So that angle or breakpoint etc.. May be something going on..

I've also had luthiers shave the bridges notches for the strings..

This gets deeper, because I have 2 bridges!! And I can show the other one in my next video haha.. But I didn't like the feeling with the 2nd bridge either! Haha..

I guess it's time to go bass shopping..

But I really wanted a 5-string upright now.. And it needs to be portable..

Yamaha doesn't make 5-string versions of their bass... I called them and already asked.. That's why I went with the eminence by the way..

 

[bassfacer22]

Look at how James Genus Strings are so loose.. I'm trying to find the Eddie Gomez video too showing it.. and Christian Mcbride.. look at the way their strings fly around.. ha..

Do your guys'll strings flop around like these!?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

FWIW, both Eddie Gomez and Christian McBride borrowed basses from me during their guest residencies here. Mr. Gomez preferred the school bass, a Shen SB100 with Sprio weichs as close to the FB as possible. Mr. McBride accepted the very first bass I offered him, my office LaScala ply with a very manly setup of Dominant G-D-A and a spiro stark E, set about 7-10mm. Both sounded exactly like themselves at all times, and both seemed perfectly happy with the basses. I did notice that Mr. McBride pulled the adjacent string to the one he plucked quite a distance on every stroke, but remember, he's a powerfully built guy, probably 5'11" and 240lbs or so. He made everything look easy.

 

[Don Kasper]

Do your guys'll strings flop around like these!?

I don't think it is worthwhile to assess or evaluate tactile string tension based solely upon visual/videotaped evidence.
Kind of like Pornography(?, or so I've heard.)