So the whole thing is 6 months old, apparently.
That went a bit quick, I'll add a post.
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Double Bass SoundPost Position.. Tight D and G strings..
- Thread starter bassfacer22
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That went a bit quick, I'll add a post.
The fingerboard feels good.. I mean Gary, the owner and maker of Eminence basses, supposedly set this bass up and it's new (2015 bass) and I've had atleast 4 luthiers now look at it and none of them mentioned anything like "oh my god! The fingerboard is terribly warped.. " etc.. Ha..
But on the note of the luthiers - I've been traveling and I only get a small limited time with these luthiers.. So that's also why I can't solve the tension issue.. They have carved the notches on the bridge, shaved the bridge to the fingerboard curve, and even glued shims to the bridge feet..
I think I now remember one of the luthiers (maybe David Gage's guy Brian?) told me he shaved the nut on the G or D string down a little..
I think it's more about what was said earlier about the break point and the soundpost position.. Even the evenness across the strings..
Perhaps I'll just have a luthier make a whole bridge from a blank and then I'll see what happens then.. These eminence bridges are just some stock cut bridges..
Anyway I'll get my 2nd bridge back in a few more days and I'll see how that changes things..
But on the note of the luthiers - I've been traveling and I only get a small limited time with these luthiers.. So that's also why I can't solve the tension issue.. They have carved the notches on the bridge, shaved the bridge to the fingerboard curve, and even glued shims to the bridge feet..
I think I now remember one of the luthiers (maybe David Gage's guy Brian?) told me he shaved the nut on the G or D string down a little..
I think it's more about what was said earlier about the break point and the soundpost position.. Even the evenness across the strings..
Perhaps I'll just have a luthier make a whole bridge from a blank and then I'll see what happens then.. These eminence bridges are just some stock cut bridges..
Anyway I'll get my 2nd bridge back in a few more days and I'll see how that changes things..
Sorry, I got distracted & my previous post happened a bit quickly. I wanted to add more. Anyway:
That fingerboard, from what I have seen on a pic, looks fine. The point I was making above is: if the FB is original, and the FB is 6 months old, the whole thing is 6 months old. Looks like you're from Sweden or Denmark or so, and in the EU you get at least 2 years warranty, often 3. Anywhere in the world you get 1 year. If you have a problem with the thing, why on earth are you not going back to the seller? Can't you arrange your travels to pass by the seller?
The last technical thing I can say about this issue is that I still suspect the cause of your problems is poor bridge balance. It is not evidenced by the pic you posted, but you did not answer my question on that pic either (i.e. if it was in the pushed-down position).
The whole thing remains a bit shrouded in mystery, and getting clarity remains a challenge. But it is not important, given that I know very little about the Eminence specifically I'm not the right guy anyway.
That fingerboard, from what I have seen on a pic, looks fine. The point I was making above is: if the FB is original, and the FB is 6 months old, the whole thing is 6 months old. Looks like you're from Sweden or Denmark or so, and in the EU you get at least 2 years warranty, often 3. Anywhere in the world you get 1 year. If you have a problem with the thing, why on earth are you not going back to the seller? Can't you arrange your travels to pass by the seller?
The last technical thing I can say about this issue is that I still suspect the cause of your problems is poor bridge balance. It is not evidenced by the pic you posted, but you did not answer my question on that pic either (i.e. if it was in the pushed-down position).
The whole thing remains a bit shrouded in mystery, and getting clarity remains a challenge. But it is not important, given that I know very little about the Eminence specifically I'm not the right guy anyway.
bassfacer22 is from the US, he only works in Europe a lot (i.e. on ships, so he cannot stay longer than a day at one place and most often there are no bass luthiers). That's also the main reason why he uses a removable neck EUB (traveling from the US to Europe by plane, I assume).
Warranty is not generally 2 years in Europe.
At least in Germany only during the first half year, after that up to 2 years you have to proof that the reason of the fault was existing when you got the product, which in almost all cases is impossible. And if it would have been obvious during the first half year, you should have complained then, not later.
Manufacturer warrany is a totally different thing and can cover all or almost nothing. The reality is anywhere in between, depending on the rules of the manufacturer.
As far as I understand it, bassfacer22 is very picky about any detail of his instrument(s). More than anyone I have read on the double bass side of Talkbass during the last years (maybe except the banned guy a few months ago, who tried to get back under different names).
I had a lot of discussions with bassfacer22 here on Talkbass regarding pickups and bridge problems last year when he was on tour on a ship across Europe.
I agree with you, Ortsom, that he should make the instrument playable for him when he is at home and has some time first before taking it on tour and constantly complaining or instead get something that works out of the box for him, so no setup is needed.
At least bassfacer22 should take some tools and strings with him to be able to try, check and correct things himself when he is on tour. If he doesn't want to do that kind of work himself, I think he needs a second instrument as a backup on tour.
Warranty is not generally 2 years in Europe.
At least in Germany only during the first half year, after that up to 2 years you have to proof that the reason of the fault was existing when you got the product, which in almost all cases is impossible. And if it would have been obvious during the first half year, you should have complained then, not later.
Manufacturer warrany is a totally different thing and can cover all or almost nothing. The reality is anywhere in between, depending on the rules of the manufacturer.
As far as I understand it, bassfacer22 is very picky about any detail of his instrument(s). More than anyone I have read on the double bass side of Talkbass during the last years (maybe except the banned guy a few months ago, who tried to get back under different names).
I had a lot of discussions with bassfacer22 here on Talkbass regarding pickups and bridge problems last year when he was on tour on a ship across Europe.
I agree with you, Ortsom, that he should make the instrument playable for him when he is at home and has some time first before taking it on tour and constantly complaining or instead get something that works out of the box for him, so no setup is needed.
At least bassfacer22 should take some tools and strings with him to be able to try, check and correct things himself when he is on tour. If he doesn't want to do that kind of work himself, I think he needs a second instrument as a backup on tour.
Ortsom,
I also own 2 3/4 full body upright basses that your information can apply and I can use later.. Also I am from the U.S.. And I think you are correct that my problem I truly feel is a setup issue and can be resolved with either better knowledge of the inner workings of acoustics and physics of the instrument or a really fantastic luthier... (Like knowing if the sound post is straight or if the bridge is well balanced.. - and I think it's a bridge issue.. Especially after all the info about the breakaway points and angle and even the nut that I remember one luthier told me he shaved down a little to make it lower..atleast on the G string..)
On the warranty note, I don't think I'd be able to use the warranty as they really just need to stock better bridges and / or have a guy who specifically carves them better..
I believe the fingerboard and design works.. (Of course there are little things like maybe using different tuning pegs that are stronger etc.. )
I did notice on both bridges I got, the luthiers wanted to make the "breakpoints" better and only have a certain amount of string held in the bridge.. And reshape the notices etc..
Are any of you guys in :
Copenhagen,Denmark
St. Petersburg, Russia
Tallinn, Estonia
Rothstock, Germany
Helsinki, Finland
Anyway I'm flying home in 9 days from Amsterdam and then yes, I'll be able to try one luthier and stay in one place for a couple months..
DoubleMidi,
Yes you are correct and that is basically my situation..
I am definitely too picky about things but I also know now in my career that I've been held back by things I just didn't have knowledge of before..
Like certain rosin on the bow, the type of hair on the bow, the soundpost and what it changes, the nut and how important the correct depth and shave is, the tuning pegs and if you wrap the strings incorrectly or they twist, the distance of the tailpiece, if you muffle the wolf tones with a mute, how to check if the feet of the bridge are flush on the bass top, if the fingerboard is straight and has bumps,
the type of sound and nuances that certain pickups have, the different type of amps and even how different speaker type of cones change the sound you hear..
Aren't these things pretty important? Especially if you are serious about the sound.. these are some of the things growing up I didn't know and I just tried to fight through playing bass.. Like height and action and using synthetic core strings instead of steel.. You know I never tried gut strings and that's probably explains a lot of type of sound and feel that I never could get for certain songs just because I didn't know gut strings have that thump that older guys talk about..
Anyway, I'm closer now than I was but as for now, I think I need to get a guy to properly balance the bridge and make sure these angles and such are correct..
I also own 2 3/4 full body upright basses that your information can apply and I can use later.. Also I am from the U.S.. And I think you are correct that my problem I truly feel is a setup issue and can be resolved with either better knowledge of the inner workings of acoustics and physics of the instrument or a really fantastic luthier... (Like knowing if the sound post is straight or if the bridge is well balanced.. - and I think it's a bridge issue.. Especially after all the info about the breakaway points and angle and even the nut that I remember one luthier told me he shaved down a little to make it lower..atleast on the G string..)
On the warranty note, I don't think I'd be able to use the warranty as they really just need to stock better bridges and / or have a guy who specifically carves them better..
I believe the fingerboard and design works.. (Of course there are little things like maybe using different tuning pegs that are stronger etc.. )
I did notice on both bridges I got, the luthiers wanted to make the "breakpoints" better and only have a certain amount of string held in the bridge.. And reshape the notices etc..
Are any of you guys in :
Copenhagen,Denmark
St. Petersburg, Russia
Tallinn, Estonia
Rothstock, Germany
Helsinki, Finland
Anyway I'm flying home in 9 days from Amsterdam and then yes, I'll be able to try one luthier and stay in one place for a couple months..
DoubleMidi,
Yes you are correct and that is basically my situation..
I am definitely too picky about things but I also know now in my career that I've been held back by things I just didn't have knowledge of before..
Like certain rosin on the bow, the type of hair on the bow, the soundpost and what it changes, the nut and how important the correct depth and shave is, the tuning pegs and if you wrap the strings incorrectly or they twist, the distance of the tailpiece, if you muffle the wolf tones with a mute, how to check if the feet of the bridge are flush on the bass top, if the fingerboard is straight and has bumps,
the type of sound and nuances that certain pickups have, the different type of amps and even how different speaker type of cones change the sound you hear..
Aren't these things pretty important? Especially if you are serious about the sound.. these are some of the things growing up I didn't know and I just tried to fight through playing bass.. Like height and action and using synthetic core strings instead of steel.. You know I never tried gut strings and that's probably explains a lot of type of sound and feel that I never could get for certain songs just because I didn't know gut strings have that thump that older guys talk about..
Anyway, I'm closer now than I was but as for now, I think I need to get a guy to properly balance the bridge and make sure these angles and such are correct..
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I think these things are important, absolutely. I also have found that for me there is a point where I have to stop fussing and just get back to practicing and playing. David Gage wisely said once that 'If you're messing around with your setup too much, it means you aren't practicing enough'. This has certainly been the case for me a couple of times.
I agree..
But try to play Brian Bromberg, Stanley Clark, Christian Mcbride, Eddie Gomez, Niels Peterson, and Chris Minh Doky solos and more on a bass that isn't tweaked setup-wise..or fussed with..
I don't want to be the "learned and practiced how to overcome fighting instruments" guy..
I'm sure you've tried those instruments where you just say, "this thing plays itself..."
Anyway is that too much to ask for?
Unfortunately for my situation, I wasn't able to test 50 basses and buy that "one" that "plays itself, so I want to try to make The one I am working with, one of those instruments..
But maybe what you should be saying to me is "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
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But, perhaps first thing to do is, try lighter tension, non metal core strings on the G and D? Lots of people do something else than Spiro on G and also D. (Hope I am not off the mark and have overlooked something in the thread...).
That skinny hollow body is friendlier to the lower strings for your uses. On my EUB (an old Azola Floating Top semi hollow) I had similar issues, very tight feeling G and D, choking the articulation of the G and D strings. It was an all Weich set, struggled with it for years. Proper finger board dressing and using Weich E A, and Spiro Solo D G much improved the feel of the bass. More recently I broke the A string and switched the Weich A string out for a Spiro Solo. Even better.
Now that's comforting.. I will try the Evah Solo G and D when I get home in 8 days.. Still though, the balance must be off with my bridge.. so I may have a luthier make me a bridge from scratch for this thing..
I should add that before I got to the Spiro solos, I tried Obligato solo. The Obli's didn't really match the Weich as they aged, the Spiro solos matched better out of the gate, and they seem to be aging gracefully as all Spiros do. I really like a set and forget situation, and i arrived at that with the combo. Just as important is the finger board dressing, well worth the expense in the long run, it really personalizes the set up. The set up on the Eminence, or any other EUB is a one size fits all from the factory.
Yes, I Don't really want anybody touching the fingerboard right now because It feels its good right now.. (minus the Tension of the D and G strings..but thats tension, not buzz or dead notes..)
but what do I know?
I just have that funny feeling after someone dresses the fingerboard I may get something else I don't like about it.. ha..
But of course eventually I will get the fingerboard planned or whatever it's called..
anyway.. I'll try the new strings and see what happens..
but what do I know?
I just have that funny feeling after someone dresses the fingerboard I may get something else I don't like about it.. ha..
But of course eventually I will get the fingerboard planned or whatever it's called..
anyway.. I'll try the new strings and see what happens..
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Honestly I think the sound posts in these hollow body jobs are more trouble than it's worth moving around for. just let it stick up in there somewhere and forget about that in the set up equation. A better approach to design might be a shorter bar under the treble foot, like the Bill Merchant EUB's..but what do I know? 
Probably nothing, and blissfully at that!
Probably nothing, and blissfully at that!
For any interested in the results of moving the soundpost, I did notice major changes, I had a wolf tone or something dead B-note on the A-string and also the low G on the E-string was a joke.. the sustain on the 2nd fret (B) on the A-string lasted about 2 seconds..
So moving the Soundpost on these little body basses does affect things pretty drastically.. I don't have that problem anymore.. but moving the soundpost was a pretty major thing just for reference..
So moving the Soundpost on these little body basses does affect things pretty drastically.. I don't have that problem anymore.. but moving the soundpost was a pretty major thing just for reference..
It looks like you have gone through quite a journey on this issue, and I'm happy to hear you came out on top!
The exact optimal position of the SP can depend on details in the construction (graduation, plate curvature, dimensions, ..), and therefore is commonly found by experience-driven trial & error. But I suspect these Eminence soundboxes are all pretty similar, if not identical (barring 4/5str, maybe), so it would be useful for other Eminence owners to document and share your learnings wrt instrument response at the various SP locations you tried.
(Would exclude string tensions; for Spiro's those are given on the TI website.)
The exact optimal position of the SP can depend on details in the construction (graduation, plate curvature, dimensions, ..), and therefore is commonly found by experience-driven trial & error. But I suspect these Eminence soundboxes are all pretty similar, if not identical (barring 4/5str, maybe), so it would be useful for other Eminence owners to document and share your learnings wrt instrument response at the various SP locations you tried.
(Would exclude string tensions; for Spiro's those are given on the TI website.)
Wood density distribution, bending stiffness distribution etc. is not really predictable since wood is a product of nature. So the same shape of two plates of wood can have different vibrational patterns.
It might be a good idea to start with positions that work well, but one should be prepared to experiment beyond that since every top is different.
It might be a good idea to start with positions that work well, but one should be prepared to experiment beyond that since every top is different.
So I'm back at home and setup a Luthier visit Next week.. with a good ol' German guy..
I told him I need my soundpost moved!!
feels ok.. But I moved the bridge around a lot to get a feel I want.. so it's definitely the soundpost! - little movements on each of the feet do change the feel.. so I guess I need soundpost readjustment..
I resetup my bass just now and tried this.. Sorry for the bullcrappin' around.. But I just wanted to make sure Fast playing is possible with no fighting back.. ha.
We will see what changes for the better or worse next week!!
I told him I need my soundpost moved!!
feels ok.. But I moved the bridge around a lot to get a feel I want.. so it's definitely the soundpost! - little movements on each of the feet do change the feel.. so I guess I need soundpost readjustment..
I resetup my bass just now and tried this.. Sorry for the bullcrappin' around.. But I just wanted to make sure Fast playing is possible with no fighting back.. ha.
We will see what changes for the better or worse next week!!
