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Sounds too modern?

I think I've reached a point in my playing career where my taste in amps and speaker cabinets don't match up with a lot of the more popular gear on the market. Make sure to notice I didn't say "all" the gear on the market.

So, I started playing a long time ago when single 15" combos were very common. I owned a couple and that's all I played through for a few years. Eventually I added a 2x10 cab, but then I got into a lot of variety, 410s, 810, 2x15, 2x12, 1x12, etc. I've also had had a pretty wide variety of amps, and kinda still do.

I find a lot of newer gear (example: Ampeg BA210 ver2) is too high-fi for my tastes. Too much pillowy bottom end, scooped mids, and sparkling highs. I can EQ it to something I can live with, but I still prefer the natural midrange bark of a couple limited x-max 15"s. Super low end is not a requirement for me.

Example; i had an Ampeg SVT 410 hlf for several years, and it started collecting dust because I preferred the tone of two old EV TL606 cabs with my Fender Studio Bass head.

I know I'm generalizing quite a bit here, but I was just wondering if anyone else finds themselves preferring tone of older gear to some newer hi-fi stuff..... Could just be me getting old:roflmao:

15s???? Real bassists use 18’s....lol!

I dunno, I would venture to say my Eden gear is at least 15 year old technology, so maybe it qualifies as vintage. So far it’s handled anything I’ve thrown at it and those 4-10s. With the exception of Death Metal and Hip-Hop (just a little light in the britches for those) it holds up well on just about any other genre out there.
 
Wow! There's a lot to unpack in your post but I'll do my best to address each of your points.

Do I want to go back to the old days of fully analog recording and mastering? Probably not. But the limitations weren't as insurmountable as they're made out to be. You needed to understand a little better how things worked, and you needed to be clever at times since there weren't programmers around being clever for you like they are today. But for the record, I'm digital like most everyone else these days. I use Harrison Console's Mixbus 32c DAW software and a Focusrite Scarlett interface for whatever more complex multitrack recording I'll occasionally do. For day to day stuff I'll often just go with a quiet room and a Zoom H4N Pro field recorder and do it all live. Interestingly enough, that sounds pretty good too. I wish I still had access to the old tape gear I learned on. But I'm not so gung-ho about it that I won't record digitally. I'd rather get something done than hold out for something I might prefer to use. I'd be silly to think any other way.



Got news. If you were a diehard cassette user you were forced to switch. The labels decided to stop releasing albums on cassette format. So if you wanted new music your choice was go over to CD or lump it. The industry cited rapidly declining sales. But that wasn't surprising since they began pulling titles from distribution on tape to retailers. Once the sales numbers were sufficiently low they cited that as "proof" consumers no longer wanted to buy cassettes and stopped making them altogether. Not that cassette quality was anything to mourn. But killing off the format led to a far more rapid adoption of CD than would have occurred otherwise.

The reasons why competing formats like Laserdisc, SACD, HDCD, and quadrophonic didn't fly are a bit more complex than most people realize. Laserdisc was very expensive for the time and there was a huge amount of confusion due to a similarly named competing product that did what it could to muddy the waters with potential buyers. So between high cost and consumer confusion, it all eventually died. Which was a shame. Laserdisc was vastly superior in quality to the video tapes that came along later.

Betamax was technically superior to VHS. But Sony wanted to keep it all to itself whereas Victor Japan happily licensed their technology to anybody who wanted to build a player. The public generally doesn't like being single sourced for something like a movie player, so Betamax fell to the inferior but more affordable and widely available VHS format and players. Sony repeated the same mistake later on with their mini discs and that device suffered the same fate.

SACD (another thing Sony was involved with) got into a format war with DVD-Audio and forced record labels to choose sides. Because consumers didn't want to get into another format war like they did with Beta and VHS, nobody bought many of either and both those formats went the way of the dodo.

HDCD required a proprietary decoder on the playback device and most manufacturers elected not to license it because there wasn't sufficient public demand and the licensing fees were a little steep. So the combination of a high cost license plus public apathy doomed HDCD.

With quadraphonic a war broke out between two competing incompatible coding formats and consumers were worried about investing significant cash in quad receivers and turntables not knowing which of the two competing standards would win out. Most people decided standard two channel stereo would do just fine instead.

So...what emerges from all this is that mutually incompatible and proprietary formats and licensing have been the main impediments to getting new media technologies generally adopted. Not the technological merits. Many of the failed products and formats offered measurably superior user experiences. But nobody wants to get stuck with an orphan device no matter how good it is. Or own media that becomes unreadable because the playback devices are no longer available or repairable. Libraries that carry media assets are already very concerned about this.

Funny thing is how this all was a repeat of the lesson that was learned when records first became available. Each player (RCA, Edison, Victorola, etc.) could only play records specifically made for that player. And these companies began to compete by trying to lock in as many artists as possible on their in-house label. If you wanted Caruso, you either bought the record player and label he was on or you did without. And that practice slowed the adoption of records since most listeners weren't keen on buying three or four players to cover everything. However, once the universal 78 RPM record came out and was released as a cross industry standard, the market for recorded music exploded. And these companies wound up making far more money selling players for a universal standard than they ever did trying to own the whole thing. And the record labels sold far more records that they ever did before as well.

Takeaway: proprietary formats are the kiss of death in a world that wants universal formats.

DAT on the other hand was killed by a recording industry that didn't want a recording device that could duplicate a commercial tape or disk with fidelity as good as the original. They attempted to force restrictive licensing on DAT ownership, have the government asses a special tax on DAT media that would be directly paid to the major recording companies, conducted a massive disinformation campaign that pretended DAT decks were illegal in the United States (they weren't), etc. And it had its desired effect. The buying public was left confused and spooked about DAT and that was the end of it.

CDs didn't run into issues with the labels for awhile because there was no economical way to duplicate one early on. But once RW capable computer CD drives started becoming popular the screaming resumed once again. Ditto when RW DVD drives became broadly affordable.

Right now the industry's big emphasis is on streaming. And the motivation is control - although it's being marketed to consumers for it's convenience. The goal is to take all hard media out of the hands of consumers who could otherwise play it back on whatever they wanted wherever they wanted - or (god forbid!) loan it to a friend to use or (gasp!) possibly even duplicate. Satellite radio subscriptions like Sirius pointed the way to what they hope the future will be. Each playback device will require an annual subscription (like a Sirius radio does) - and is licensed to the user rather than sold outright. Think you own you sat-radio or smartphone? Look at the customer agreement you blindly signed when you handed them your credit card. They still own the device they "sold" you. They just granted you a right to use it. Want to play something you subscribed to on your house system? Maybe you can and maybe you can't. Netflix allows five devices on one subscription. Acorn TV allows one. Sirius requires each of their radios have their own subscription. If you didn't buy a docking type unit forget about playing what you subscribed to for your car on the unit you just bought for the house - unless you want to subscribe on that unit as well.

Eventually hard media (disks, tapes, etc.) will be eliminated by industry fiat and everything will come down through metered and monitored streaming services. Even now there's a lot of movies that are only available via streaming. Want a DVD or BlueRay of some movie you love? Don't be so sure one is available. Or is ever going to be. On Amazon I'm seeing how more and more titles are now only available for streaming. The DVD and BlueRay versions are gradually disappearing from their website.





It's also led to a lot of overproduced music and recordings, often also made by people who don't have the level of craft expertise many in the old guard did. Many of that clan could go in and just nail it. Today it often involves a lot of cut & try. A little dithering with this and a lot of tweaking with that, and trying this plug-in and that one and... Dunno. That's not knowing what you're doing to me.

Or at least so I think.



I've been in IT for over 35 years and I'm familiar with virtually any storage media and encoding format you can name. And I can categorically tell you stored digital information is not immune to data loss or deterioration. In addition to a phenomena known as "bitrot" all information is ultimately stored on some physical device somewhere. And any device is subject to failure or degradation. As many businesses which have maintained years worth of meticulously made and stored backups on media sometimes learn when they needed to restore something. Optical and electronic storage is not the panacea it's made out to be. Anytime an IT professional needs to restore something from backup media that's more than a few years old, they take a deep breath and cross their fingers.



True enough. Especially how it didn't benefit the content creators.

Kinda sad in a way.

In the old days, the musicians had the pleasure of being robbed blind by their agents, their record labels, and broadcast industry.

With the advent of MP3 and the Internet they now have the added pleasure of being severely ripped off by many of their fans.

New wine in old bottles - but the same wine just the same.

I think that's what's called: "Business as usual."



This! A thousand times this. :thumbsup:



It's hardly esoteric. But to your point it's a learned thing. If you don't care, or you've been reeducated to hear things in a different way, it absolutely won't matter. No argument there.

As far as the overwhelming majority goes, I think you need to proceed according to you own lights and standards. Maybe nobody else cares. But if it makes a difference to you I think it's good for your own self and integrity to do it anyway.

Nobody cares? Do it anyway.

Hardly anybody can hear it besides you? Do it anyway.

It doesn't matter if you don't do it? Do it anyway.

A powerful mantra that is: Just do it anyway. :)


tl:dr - This whole post is way too long. Go practice your bass and don't waste your time with it.

Head spinning...... Excellent post!
 
Of course the issue is what sound right to one person sound like garbage to the next. As a result, you need to find the amp and speaker combination that produces the type of sound you like. Some rigs are extremely versatile and can be dialed in to get a bunch of different tones. Other rigs tend to have a strong baked in sound that you either love or hate. If you play a variety of different musical styles you need either a flexible rig or a couple of different rigs that can cover the tonal ground you need.
Of course wanting it to 'sound right' is a purely personal thing, to a point. Not only do I have to like it, it has to be right for the song. I consider myself fortunate to be able to cover everything I need, properly, with what I have.
 
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well..I am going to have to disagree..my HLF 4x10's sound great (I use 2)..in consideration..there are a number of variables involved..I always have my cabs up on a specially constructed platform closer to ear level..the bass head and how well you are able to operate the buttons and knobs has a lot to do with it too..and I use an external rackmounted preamp before the bass head..which is another set of buttons and knobs..and lets not forget about the instrument itself..lots of variables there..and individual hearing is different too..this comment about the HLF's being midscooped is certainly misunderstood..guess its all about the wizard behind the wand..
Even with a graphic EQ, I was unable to get it to sound like anything but mud. To me it's the worst sounding cab I've ever played through.
 
I too disabled the horns in my cabs and ran flats for years on my fretted 5's. Recently I began wanting something different and got lucky with some rounds that I really dig and Im enjoying the change of pace. Its the bite/snarl/growl/whatever of the rounds that is nice but I dont like zing...for me. I hate for me. Have enjoyed it as a listener of other peoples sound tho
 
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I don't find myself in agreement with that.



I'd respectfully submit that such coloration and a noise floor more accurately reflect the ambiance of a natural acoustic environment more than the clinically clean and noiseless sonic space a digital recording lives in.

There is noise in a digital recording btw. There is always noise. But the way your signal interacts with the noise floor in digital is different than it is in an analog recording.

In an analog recording, increasing the signal gain also increases the noise. In a digital environment, the noise floor level and quantizing error are fixed. Increasing the input signal does not have any effect on that. Neither does decreasing it. That floor is always right where it is. So the hotter the signal, the better the noise floor gets masked. Which is the exact opposite of what happens with analog.

Unlike analog, lowering the input level in digital results in less masking of any noise. So with a digital recording you always want to record (within reason) the highest level you can get - as opposed to analog where you want the highest signal possible just shy of clipping. Because lowering the input level in digital has the odd sonic effect of making the noise seem to increase. That's something that can't physically occur in nature. And it's also something our ears immediately pick up on and our brain flags as: "something's very wrong here."
I hate to be the guy who nitpicks, but that’s only true in the era of low resolution digital recording. I don’t believe in high resolution mastering, by the way, but as far as recording and mixing goes, it’s high resolution all the way.

The average 24-bit interface has an SNR rated well above 110 dB. Certainly, mastering quality interfaces can even go above 120 dB. Considering the theoretical best vinyl playback can only achieve 75-80 dB SNR and CDs about 96 dB SNR, there’s more than enough resolution in 24-bit to basically make quantization and headroom irrelevant.

In the modern high resolution era, manufacturers don’t often suggest recording as hot as possible before clipping. It’s more like, just do whatever works for you. Clearly, you want to avoid clipping, but then again, top interfaces have built in limiters that can make the occasional peaks not too catastrophic. Considering most preamps might only have about 70 dB SNR and acoustical noise floor is quite high, you could record at -40 dB in a modern system without suffering from loss of resolution. We can’t really discuss digital vs. analog without considering all the advances in digital recording, as well as analog, for that matter, considering mics and preamps only keep getting even cleaner as things like SMDs are making gain circuits and even purely analog devices more efficient, consistent, and cleaner.

It’s really a difference, too, by the way, going from Behringer to a Focusrite to an RME or an Apogee. It’s not something that’s obvious at first, but as you work on your projects over time, those devices pay for themselves. And the best digital devices today are way cheaper than the comparable analog devices ever were.
 
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I hate to be the guy who nitpicks,

No you don’t. I’ve read other posts by you. :p

... but that’s only true in the era of low resolution digital recording. I don’t believe in high resolution mastering, by the way, but as far as recording and mixing goes, it’s high resolution all the way.

The average 24-bit interface has an SNR rated well above 110 dB. Certainly, mastering quality interfaces can even go above 120 dB. Considering the theoretical best vinyl playback can only achieve 75-80 dB SNR and CDs about 96 dB SNR, there’s more than enough resolution in 24-bit to basically make quantization and headroom irrelevant.

In the modern high resolution era, manufacturers don’t often suggest recording as hot as possible before clipping. It’s more like, just do whatever works for you. Clearly, you want to avoid clipping, but then again, top interfaces have built in limiters that can make the occasional peaks not too catastrophic. Considering most preamps might only have about 70 dB SNR and acoustical noise floor is quite high, you could record at -40 dB in a modern system without suffering from loss of resolution. We can’t really discuss digital vs. analog without considering all the advances in digital recording, as well as analog, for that matter, considering mics and preamps only keep getting even cleaner as things like SMDs are making gain circuits and even purely analog devices more efficient, consistent, and cleaner.

It’s really a difference, too, by the way, going from Behringer to a Focusrite to an RME or an Apogee. It’s not something that’s obvious at first, but as you work on your projects over time, those devices pay for themselves. And the best digital devices today are way cheaper than the comparable analog devices ever were.

I’ll have to take your word for it since I can only comment on what I have actual hands-on experience with.

As far as interfaces go I’m aware of the differences in speed and quality between home recording, semi pro, and pro gear. So that comes as no news to me. I’ve worked with some of the really good interfaces myself. But that’s all kinda irrelevant to me personally because there’s only do much money and time, and the simple setup I own and know how to use serves me quite well for the things I use it for. If I needed more than that I’d just book some studio time and let a pro handle the technical end while I concentrated on the music. I’m perfectly comfortable working with someone else who is more knowledgeable and has access to better gear than I own. Never felt the need to duplicate things like that when I could hire it out unless I intended to start doing recording on a pro level.

Either way, thx for taking the time to share all that info. :thumbsup:
 
Lots of great sounding new gear out there. You don't need to buy vintage gear to get a vintage sound IMO! Aguilar, Genzler, Quilter(my favorite for a big solid rock tone), Ampeg, Fender, and several more all provide excellent sounding vintage voiced heads that will give you that "old" sound.

Yup - I tend to gravitate towards old school sound for most of my gigging these days, and have a couple current and convenient options to get there:
Mesa Subway 115 Stack(1).JPG
Fender Rumble 200C(1).JPG
 
Some great reading, including the analog / digital discussion.

Re-thinking, I suppose High Fidelity is flat response from 20Hz to 20KHz with less than 0.05%THD just like the specs of the best home receiver / amps back in the day. Playing a bass into some kind of rig / PA that will do that probably wouldn't produce the sound most bassists are looking for. So from that respect, maybe some new rigs ARE too hi-fi for my tastes.

The harder I try to describe what I'm talking about, the fewer words I can come up with. I guess I'll revert back to bass tones I've heard on recordings to explain.

Tom Fowler on Frank Zappa's "One Size Fits All" is one of my favorite bass tones (Po-Jama People).

Mel Schacher on Grand Funk's 3rd & 4th albums is also great stuff ("Aimless Lady" on Closer to Home or "I Come Tumblin" on E Pluribus Funk are good examples).

Phil Chen on Jeff Beck's "Blow By Blow" is wonderful (try "Freeway Jam" ).

These are the non-modern tones I keep trying to achieve, and it seems easier to do with older cabinets that really don't have the freq. response as newer cabs. I'm sure the newer cabs can do it with the right EQ, but the older cabs just get the tone naturally. Plug & play retro tone.....
 
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