I have my expression pedal attached to my midi controller, a Morningstar MC-8. I would like to send expression messages via midi from the controller via the hub to the AF. But it seems I can't.
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Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3
- Thread starter gregmon79
- Start date
If the MC-8 can send CC messages to the hub, the Aftershock can be mapped with whatever parameter you want associated with that CC. Question is then, I guess, can the MC-8 be programmed to have expression control of that message. I'm not familiar with that controller, but I know it's pretty deep and quite capable. Others here use them and can maybe explain how to set that up if it's possible.
I suggest you look back over the previous pots. The AF cannot get expression over midi unless the expression pedal is attached directly to the hub. That is how the older pedals are programmed.
I guess I should clarify what my setup is. I'm using a SA Reflex attached to the hub via 5 pin midi. The Reflex sends CC on the appropriate channel (2 in my case) and the hub passes it through to the AS, to whatever parameter I map the CC to. Works quite well.
A regular expression pedal connected to the hub with TRS is of course not going to pass midi. Your only option with that connection is to enable external control in the hub editor and use those controls, not midi.
A regular expression pedal connected to the hub with TRS is of course not going to pass midi. Your only option with that connection is to enable external control in the hub editor and use those controls, not midi.
- May 16, 2007
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What Aftershock parameter(s) do you want to be able to control? Map those parameters to CCs in the Aftershock's MIDI map (there's enough room to map all of them). Then assign expression messages in your MC8 to send those CCs on the Aftershock's channel.
Gibs210
Commercial User
- Aug 31, 2019
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Well, yes and no, there's not remote expression CC, but as others have said, you can map to control whatever cc you want via expression. It's just limited to a single midi CC, rather than controlling more than one control at a time like remote expression would allow for.
- May 16, 2007
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- Volunteer developer/beta tester with Source Audio, Morningstar Engineering & MORTRIX
Even then, not an issue as the MC8 can send up to 16 expression messages simultaneously on a single pedal.
I think he was saying the Aftershock is only able to receive 1 CC message at a time
Dumb question from somebody who hasn't read the new spec properly: now that it's been ratified, does MIDI 2 incorporate improvements on this front?It is worth addressing this point.
There is no set of established protocols for testing whether something is "MIDI compliant". It is only through years of making a wide variety of MIDI devices such as the Hub, Soleman, and Reflex that we have gained insight into the ways that other manufacturers do things and how to design around whatever it is they have done. There is no independent testing lab to certify that MIDI products are compliant. As an example: some MIDI devices send the data in any easy-to-read relatively slow serial digital format, but some send it in a firehouse of bursty data that requires a dedicated buffer so that that data can be correctly parsed into the right messages. Is it our fault that we cant read those messages, or was it a bad assumption on the part of the other company that every MIDI device needs a dedicated buffer? My point here is that this stuff is REALLY difficult and it takes years to get it right. The good news is that we have now been working on it for years, and Jesse is a way above average systems engineer.
rsmith601
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- Apr 14, 2009
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I do not believe so from what I have read on it. I suspect that a company like Roland/Boss has a dedicated "compliance lab" where they have lots of equipment and a procedure established for testing that their MIDI devices will work with most or the things that are out there. In my 20 years at Analog Devices we did things like this when necessary. When you have 10,000 employees, its not a big deal to dedicate 5 people to a compliance lab. Doing this at any smaller company is very difficult. But, as noted, with the passage of time a small company can catch up. We have been at this for 15 years, so we are becoming experts for sure. Also note that what we do with MIDI is WAY beyond the typical pedal company.
rsmith601
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- Apr 14, 2009
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@GMC @4Mal @monkeyfinger @Somnambulance @Mosfed
Important Update: Jesse has been testing the setup with Expression> ES5, Hub, EQ2 and Aftershock. He was able to replicate what is going on. IT IS IN THE HUB. NOT IN THE EQ2. If this is impacting anyone, please reach out to [email protected] so you can get a patch for the Hub. We will eventually do a new release, but that needs more careful testing. Sorry to anyone impacted!
Important Update: Jesse has been testing the setup with Expression> ES5, Hub, EQ2 and Aftershock. He was able to replicate what is going on. IT IS IN THE HUB. NOT IN THE EQ2. If this is impacting anyone, please reach out to [email protected] so you can get a patch for the Hub. We will eventually do a new release, but that needs more careful testing. Sorry to anyone impacted!
Sorry, I don't agree. I think there is a current issue with the EQ2 and Midi Din cable connection, which is unusual for a small SA unit to have. I'm sure SA will get it fixed. Roger has personally said so. I think there are baked in Midi limitations with the Aftershock, Lunar, Gemini and Mercury where SA didn't expect the wider usage of Midi CC and PC features. I think it was assumed by SA that everyone would use the SA Soleman and not use 3rd party Midi controllers. AS much as I like the soleman, it's quite limited in the number of devices and how it manages scenes. So I think the problem is actually the reverse of your statement. The older gear is more limited. Newer gear like the C4 are amazing products and carry more Midi features than most of us would want implement. Unfortunately, the older kit doesn't have the coding. I'd love to be able to change the 6 internal presets via midi (CC or PC). But neither the Aftershock or Lunar have this function in their midi map, which is because they are both much older pedals. It's frustrating, but that's the way it currently is. I think if SA had the resource and time to fix them, they would shift a few more of those older units. They would certainly become more relevant in 2021. I think sonically SA gear is in the same audio league as other top tier digital big panel brands like Strymon, Eventide, EHX and Boss. I think their C4 Synth and Intelligent Filter are a thing of beauty.
Sure, I've listed how I have configured Left Output to Expression via Midi CC on thread #11396 a few pages back. I supplied Neuro Desktop screen grabs of the three pages with settings required in red.
I use midi CC expression to control the Left Output, which effectively is the volume on the Aftershock. If you also set the Right Output in the Midi map too, then send a pair of Assigns via Midi CC. So it's a matter of setting the parameter you want to control via the device midi map. Then send expression over CC to that midi CC number(s). There's two default settings that you have to change on each patch. Or else these settings will stop the expression over Midi CC from being read by the Aftershock, every time you change patch. Please feel free to drop me a PM if you need further help.
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Yeah. I am able to map parameters to cc messages on the AF device midi mapping. I can then map the expression input to the MC-8 to those same CC messages on the AF midi channel. So it is possible to create several mapping on the AF that all can be controlled by the expression pedal via the MC-8.
Using the neuro desktop app, I can create a per patch expression setting that controls a range of values for Drive, Output, Bass/Clean, and Treble which are controlled by an expression pedal. These correspond to the knob controls on the device. Note that this configuration works regardless of input/output configuration.
This is on the neuro app configuration panel for the AF:
So, what cc parameters should I map to get the same expression control over the top controls on the pedal?
Using the neuro desktop app, I can create a per patch expression setting that controls a range of values for Drive, Output, Bass/Clean, and Treble which are controlled by an expression pedal. These correspond to the knob controls on the device. Note that this configuration works regardless of input/output configuration.
This is on the neuro app configuration panel for the AF:
So, what cc parameters should I map to get the same expression control over the top controls on the pedal?
Attachments
I installed the patch and my neuro hub isn't bricked but it still does not seem to be talking to my Eq2.
I updated the firmware. Rebooted the hub (just in case).
Tried my 2 scenes. Input 1 and Input 2. nothing.
As it is only 2 scenes (all my others were scrapped due to pedal board overhaul). I did a factory reset on the hub and set the two up again.
When I have Desktop connected to the Eq2, I see the 2 scenes. When I select a scene the led point for that scene is engaged.
When I have Desktop connected to the Hub, selecting a scene seems to have no affect. Led on the EQ2 stays where it was last.
Hub is on midi 1, EQ2 is on midi 2
On the Soleman I have Input 1 and 2 2 Macro scenes that each ensure that the C4 and Future Inpact are bypassed/ disengaged and then send a PC#1on midi 1 or PC#2 on midi 1.
So that didn't seem to work.
Then I adjusted the Input 1 macro to just set the volume up on CC#1 and down on CC#2 and the inverse on the Input 2 macro. Both on midi #2.
No dice...
So I also tested C4 patches. Also macro based 2 lines. First disengage the Fi. Second a CC#104 on midi 1 with the preset number to recall. Interestingly, when I go to my third scene, a C4 Chameleon patch. That works. I get my Herbie ARP sound.
When I step back to Scene 2, the C4 is disengaged - however my EQ2 is still set to preset 1.
Not sure if this is pilot error or if the updated firmware is not doing what I expect it to.
I updated the firmware. Rebooted the hub (just in case).
Tried my 2 scenes. Input 1 and Input 2. nothing.
As it is only 2 scenes (all my others were scrapped due to pedal board overhaul). I did a factory reset on the hub and set the two up again.
When I have Desktop connected to the Eq2, I see the 2 scenes. When I select a scene the led point for that scene is engaged.
When I have Desktop connected to the Hub, selecting a scene seems to have no affect. Led on the EQ2 stays where it was last.
Hub is on midi 1, EQ2 is on midi 2
On the Soleman I have Input 1 and 2 2 Macro scenes that each ensure that the C4 and Future Inpact are bypassed/ disengaged and then send a PC#1on midi 1 or PC#2 on midi 1.
So that didn't seem to work.
Then I adjusted the Input 1 macro to just set the volume up on CC#1 and down on CC#2 and the inverse on the Input 2 macro. Both on midi #2.
No dice...
So I also tested C4 patches. Also macro based 2 lines. First disengage the Fi. Second a CC#104 on midi 1 with the preset number to recall. Interestingly, when I go to my third scene, a C4 Chameleon patch. That works. I get my Herbie ARP sound.
When I step back to Scene 2, the C4 is disengaged - however my EQ2 is still set to preset 1.
Not sure if this is pilot error or if the updated firmware is not doing what I expect it to.
When I updated the FW on the hub, it simply would not respond to midi messages. (No flashing light.)
