• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

SpaceX and other space stuff

There are international treaties already in existence that every space capable nation has signed onto, which prevent exactly that from happening.

When Musk or Branson or Bezos puts a rocket into orbit, they have necessarily gone through an elaborate process of securing approval from the U.S. government. That approval won't be granted unless there is a detailed, step by step plan for everything that will happen on the flight. That not only includes the exact flight path, but also what personnel and cargo will be on board. If there is anything that the government doesn't like, for whatever reason, that permit is denied.

If Musk decided he wanted to put a small satellite into orbit. that would need special permission. If he wanted to take some rich tourist on a joyride, that would need special permission. If he wanted to send a robot probe to a piece of space rock in the asteroid belt and claim it as his property, it would automatically be denied, because that is against international treaties signed by the U.S.

Rich people claiming bits of space for themselves as their own profit won't happen because the government of every space capable nation on Earth will always be motivated to retain that control for themselves, out of "public interest".

But there's really nothing they can do... Muskrat or Benzine can launch from any poor country that will let them do anything they want as long as the money rolls in, what then is the US or China, India or Russia going to do, shoot them down? Regulation of airspace worked as countries could legitimately claim the air above their territory. But beyond the Van Allen Belt no-one owns or controls anything. Unless there's little green men up there on patrol...
 
  • Like
Reactions: TOOL460002
But there's really nothing they can do... Muskrat or Benzine can launch from any poor country that will let them do anything they want as long as the money rolls in, what then is the US or China, India or Russia going to do, shoot them down? Regulation of airspace worked as countries could legitimately claim the air above their territory. But beyond the Van Allen Belt no-one owns or controls anything. Unless there's little green men up there on patrol...




They could have their personal bank accounts frozen. They could have their corporations embargoed or shut down. They could be arrested and prosecuted for criminal violation of U.S. or other nations' laws.

Launching a sophisticated piece of rocket technology into space can't be done without the U.S., Japan, Russia, and many other countries knowing exactly where it's going and what it's doing when it gets there. It's not like Musk could have a robot probe stick his personal flag in a piece of the moon or on an asteroid and claim ownership and the U.S. government will just shrug and say, "Oh well, what can you do?"

International Space Treaty

The Outer Space Treaty


Note especially the bolded items.
  • the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind;
  • outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States;
  • outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;
  • States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;
  • the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;
  • astronauts shall be regarded as the envoys of mankind;
  • States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities;
  • States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and
  • States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winslow and ahc
Launching a sophisticated piece of rocket technology into space can't be done without the U.S., Japan, Russia, and many other countries knowing exactly where it's going and what it's doing when it gets there.
Unless we're talking about China's space program, in which case, they can launch massive things into space with no plans for controlled reentry, let the world wonder when/where/how it's going to come down, and rest comfortably in the knowledge that there are/will be absolutely no real-world consequences for such irresponsibility:

China’s Heavenly Palace to make an uncontrolled return from the heavens
World waits to see where a Chinese booster will come down
Large chunks of a Chinese rocket missed New York City by about 15 minutes

Oh, and [bleep] any of your own people living downrange of your launch facilities too:
Once again, a Chinese rocket has doused a village with toxic fuel

And yet... China is a party to that very same Outer Space Treaty.

Given the way they operate, one can't help but wonder if they bothered to read it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TOOL460002
Unless we're talking about China's space program, in which case, they can launch massive things into space with no plans for controlled reentry, let the world wonder when/where/how it's going to come down, and rest comfortably in the knowledge that there are/will be absolutely no real-world consequences for such irresponsibility:

China’s Heavenly Palace to make an uncontrolled return from the heavens
World waits to see where a Chinese booster will come down
Large chunks of a Chinese rocket missed New York City by about 15 minutes

Oh, and [bleep] any of your own people living downrange of your launch facilities too:
Once again, a Chinese rocket has doused a village with toxic fuel

And yet... China is a party to that very same Outer Space Treaty.

Given the way they operate, one can't help but wonder if they bothered to read it.


This is a completely different issue from what we've been discussing. China is certainly being irresponsible with when and where their spent booster rockets and other wasted space machinery reenter the am Earth's atmosphere, but nothing in international treaty covers that, and to be fair, the U.S. has been pretty irresponsible itself when it comes to dropping spent rockets and derelict satellites at random spots on the globe.

This simply demonstrates the need to update international law for everybody. Another area that needs addressing is the sheer volume of objects in Earth orbit that are beginning to pose a genuine threat of collision with other objects, especially with live astronauts on board.

I think that those who are worried about large corporations, or even billionaire individuals declaring themselves owners of outpists in space or on parts of the moon or in the asteroid belt are being a bit too pessimistic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winslow
Well I'm emailing my CV for a job on Bezosia...
Now I'm thinking... Elonodon? Muskopolis?

We already have a Branson, but I have no interest in going there... :wacky:

7520112db5178934411453c4f42d37d1.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: ahc