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Speaker ideas for old EV B115-M cab (15" and 6")...
- Thread starter sunbeast
- Start date
I've never heard that rating, but mine is an older one with the earlier 200 watt EV-15L. They later made the 15B and 15B Pro (I believe are the designations), and the Pro was rated for 400 watts. I would guess if we are actually using the same cab, then yours must have been loaded with the later 400 watt speaker. One option I have is to get the current speaker reconed with a 400 watt kit, but I would prefer to cut some weight where I can (and a new lighter speaker won't cost all that much more than a recone when I consider how much I could eventually sell the original speaker for as is- a recone would feel silly anyway as the current speaker is in great condition).
I do agree that this cab kicks ass stock- I just don't really want to worry about blowing the woofer everytime I want to crank it (the way I did with the JBL D-140s in my old 2x15 cab). Thats what speakers are for!
Karl
Thanks so much Sundogue- I'm glad there is someone here willing to help stoke the fires of experimentation! I probably would have been back here asking how the heck to use that program before too long, but you didn't even give me the chance to get lost
Karl
Thanks so much Sundogue- I'm glad there is someone here willing to help stoke the fires of experimentation! I probably would have been back here asking how the heck to use that program before too long, but you didn't even give me the chance to get lost
Karl
You are welcome. I'm not an expert, but I've built my share of cabs and I always support anyone who wants to do the DIY thing. If I would have listened to those who tried to talk me out of doing my first DIY stuff, I would have missed out on a lot of enjoyment and learning. I mean yeah, you'll make mistakes but everyone does in the process. Generally most guys on TB just don't want you to waste time or money if there is a better way and that's cool, but where's the fun in that?
If you end up with a nice little kickass two way 115, then you not only learned something, you'll get some great use out of it to boot. Worse case is you'll end up with a great 15" speaker for a possible future build.
The important thing about WinISD is learning to translate what you see in the graphs with real world sound. After a while, you'll look at the graphs and be able to tell how a cab will generally sound before you build it.
Keep us posted.
Karl, your B-115M and Rovito's B-1150M use the same EV15L speaker. See: Link Removed and Link Removed. The latter also explains the rationale behind using the 16 lb. magnet structure on the 6" VMR speaker. While the cabinet brochures don't mention the 800w peak that Rovito refers to (they actually mention 1600w!!), the brochure for the EVM-15L Series II speaker itself does (the brochure for the EVM-15L Pro-Line speaker says it is rated at 400w/1600w peak). Finally, I don't know what you were powering your 2x15 cabs with that caused you to worry about blowing them every time you wanted to crank it but I've been using one or two Sunn 200S cabs (with 2x15 D-140F JBLs) since the '70s with a 300w Magnavox era Ampeg SVT and have never had a problem or worried about the speakers. While my 200S head was only 60w, I've never had a problem driving even one of my cabs with the SVT.
I am surprised to hear that about your experiences with your SVTs- I was using a Mesa 400+ and it was very obvious when the speakers were at their limits (and without even boosting the bass controls). Having owned both amps, the Mesa naturally had less of a deep bass cutoff than my SVT, but I'd still be very surprised if you'd be able to push a pair of D-140s as you say for very much time and without the bass control cut significantly without hearing some obvious distortion or farting out. I COULD have made it work, but it would have required EQ and volume level sacrifices that I wasn't willing to make.
In fact- I didn't mention this (somewhat out of embarassment), but I actually DID end up blowing one of the D-140s prior to switching out the Eminences (I had actually just ordered them due to a particularly "farty" session with the D-140s). And this was in a fairly mid-volume leveled practice and not a loud gig (luckily!). I think the past excursions had probably weakened the speaker enough that it just needed one more little push to go over the edge (or the voice coil had already started rubbing and I didn't catch it). I was lucky enough to find a local guitarist/vintage gear geek who had a collection of D-140s and some extra voice coil kits who gave me a pretty generous amount of money for both drivers despite the one being blown!
When I first got the cab with D-140s, I heard plenty of stories about overpowering them, and just about everyone I talked to about it said that I should reconsider using them with an amp that was putting more than 75 watts or so to each speaker (even the guy I bought the cab from- who had used it with a 100 watt Bassman for years). So your experience is a bit of an exception there!
I haven't heard of as many instances of people blowing the EV 15s without blatant overpowering, but most of the bass cabs still around with those speakers (like all the Mesas) were equipped with the 400 watt variant. A Google search yields quite a few stories of blown VMR drivers though, so I am definitely hesitant about using that except at attenuated levels (and even at low levels, the mod speaker seems to be getting a lot of signal with the current crossover!). The 16 pound magnet seems to have been used on ALL of their speakers from that era, and I don't think it really has anything to do with blown-speaker prevention!
Either way- I could keep the 32 pounds of magnets in the cab and constantly be wary of blowing the speakers, or I could sell them to someone more confident with them and replace them with speakers that will outperform them at less than half the weight. To me the choice is obvious- I will at least try new speakers and keep the old ones around long enough to be sure I made the right choice! As Sundogue says, at the least I'll have some nice speakers that I can use for my project even if this particular box doesn't work out...
Thanks,
Karl
I'm the kind of person that just keeps collecting speakers and cabinets and one of my hobbies is to just tinker around designing/building cabs and trying all kinds of interesting combinations. Some of them end up not being very worthwhile, but most do, even though I am constantly reminded in my queries to NOT waste my time doing it. If I enjoy doing it and I'm not out to change the bass world, then what's the big deal?
Don't ever be afraid to mess things up. Sometimes the mess we create is the best thing in life. No one ever learned anything by not making mistakes. When it comes to designing, building or redoing existing bass cabs, the worst that could happen is you end up with something that is the equivalent of what most commercial cabs are anyway.
In regards to the posts of 800 watts (or even 1600 watts) peak, those are either bogus or meaningless figures anyway. There is no way any single 115 cab is going to take 1600 watts (or even 800) in any meaningful performance way, without blowing the speaker. That is a "peak" rating that means for a brief second it might take that power, but it certainly doesn't mean anything in the context of usable watts. For that cab to have a peak rating of 1600 watts, it would mean that cab has a single 800 watt 15" speaker.
I'd like to see someone slam 1600 watts with the lows cranked into that EV and tell me how long it lasts. And wattage ratings are the least important spec on a speaker anyway. It's only it's thermal rating before you melt the voicecoil. It isn't really a meaningful performance spec for the most part.
From everything I've read, the size of the voice coil gives an approximate thermal power handling of the speaker (not that I could determine it from that), but the wattage rating is pretty plain and simple.
If you run more than 400 watts continuously into a 400 watt speaker you will melt the voice coil. Of course the speaker will more than likely fail from it's mechanical limits long before that.
I asked this very same question a while back (although can't find the post) and some of the speaker design gurus suggested I send my EV 115M to the dump as the cab is too large for a 3015 and the 3015 LF would not interface well with the midrange
I have had this cabinet (as well as it's matin B-2115M cabinet) for years and currently have this set up side by side with TL-606 and a speaker selector swich driven by an LMII.
IMO, the B115M has great tone and has a much fuller; low end response than the TL606.
It also will distorT easily; while this woofer is not brand new, it is in decent used condition and you can visualy see the cone moving farther than it was intended to.
This cabinet is just the right size and shape for me, my car, and my playing; it's all about me and I like th sound; just not the speaker farting out.
All I want is a 15" speaker that will work as best as possible that is 8 ohms and a 400 watt capacity.
Can someone please advise as to which driver is the best compromise?
I have had this cabinet (as well as it's matin B-2115M cabinet) for years and currently have this set up side by side with TL-606 and a speaker selector swich driven by an LMII.
IMO, the B115M has great tone and has a much fuller; low end response than the TL606.
It also will distorT easily; while this woofer is not brand new, it is in decent used condition and you can visualy see the cone moving farther than it was intended to.
This cabinet is just the right size and shape for me, my car, and my playing; it's all about me and I like th sound; just not the speaker farting out.
All I want is a 15" speaker that will work as best as possible that is 8 ohms and a 400 watt capacity.
Can someone please advise as to which driver is the best compromise?
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=608981&highlight=
I wouldn't let them discourage you too much- not everyone needs to hop on the fEarful bandwagon to find their own ideas of "good tone".
I think the consensus was that the crossover would not pair well with higher input wattage than it was designed for (although who knows what kind of wattage the crossover or mid-driver will comfortably handle). So fitting it with a different 15 shouldn't be a problem as long as you also count on replacing the crossover (and maybe the mid driver as well). The problem with the available 15s is that this cab doesn't match "ideal" dimensions for use with any of them (though neither do most mass-produced cabs). Luckily my "ideal" tone almost certainly involves a midrange coloring and a low end roll off from the cabinet, as that is all I've ever known! Given how much I paid for the cab, I don't mind making the experimental investment in new speakers, and that seems to be the concern that most people are raising about the modification.
If I were you, I'd definitely stop using the EV speaker if you are driving it to the point of farting- you can get some money towards a new speaker by selling it, but it won't be nearly as much if you blow it first! I learned this the hard way with my D-140s.
Let me know what you decide to do- I haven't yet messed with the WinISD program that Sundogue was suggesting yet, but I hope to after I get through these last couple weeks of spring term!
Cool cabs!
Karl
I came very close to getting this cab when it was on CL... Ended up getting one of the TL-606 cabs that was listed at the same time... I dig the old stuff!!
-robert
-robert
Thanks Karl,
I've had both of these cabinets over 20 years and defineately don't push them hard; just wish the 1x15 had a little more ummpfff as it could be used on more gigs
Haven't had a minute to play with software and was previously hoping that someone more in the know would offer an educated suggestion as to which speaker would be a good choice.
Since you brought up the optimization issue, here is some food for thought:
* There has been great bass tone generated long before computers, software, neo drivers, or even cabinets that were designed and tuned
* Many standard sized cabinets from the past continue to be produced at the existing size and are fitted with new drivers; clearly not tuned
* Many of these cabinets continue to sound very good
* While I come from a family of engineers and have certainly used good engineering practices in fabrication and design of big block Chevy drag motors as well as 2-stroke race engines, much of what we do here is not qualatative; in other words,it may be technicaly wrong but if it sounds good, it is good
* If one were to only listed to music with an O'scope, then a distorted Fender or Marshall would be a bad thing, let alone slamming the input levels of an analog tape deck, using a mic with a known limited frequency response or bump, recording drums in a stairwell, using an open back guitar amp, etc.
Lastly, I wonder if the majority of cabinets being sold (and gigged professionaly) are "technicaly" correct; while I am fortuneate enough to own a Berg, there certainly are a lot of Acoustic, Ampeg, Avatar, Behringer, Carvin, etc cabs sold everyday that are probably not so tuned (and that's only the first 3 letters of the alphabet)
I've had both of these cabinets over 20 years and defineately don't push them hard; just wish the 1x15 had a little more ummpfff as it could be used on more gigs
Haven't had a minute to play with software and was previously hoping that someone more in the know would offer an educated suggestion as to which speaker would be a good choice.
Since you brought up the optimization issue, here is some food for thought:
* There has been great bass tone generated long before computers, software, neo drivers, or even cabinets that were designed and tuned
* Many standard sized cabinets from the past continue to be produced at the existing size and are fitted with new drivers; clearly not tuned
* Many of these cabinets continue to sound very good
* While I come from a family of engineers and have certainly used good engineering practices in fabrication and design of big block Chevy drag motors as well as 2-stroke race engines, much of what we do here is not qualatative; in other words,it may be technicaly wrong but if it sounds good, it is good
* If one were to only listed to music with an O'scope, then a distorted Fender or Marshall would be a bad thing, let alone slamming the input levels of an analog tape deck, using a mic with a known limited frequency response or bump, recording drums in a stairwell, using an open back guitar amp, etc.
Lastly, I wonder if the majority of cabinets being sold (and gigged professionaly) are "technicaly" correct; while I am fortuneate enough to own a Berg, there certainly are a lot of Acoustic, Ampeg, Avatar, Behringer, Carvin, etc cabs sold everyday that are probably not so tuned (and that's only the first 3 letters of the alphabet)
Most everyone here knows how I feel about DIY and modding. While I agree that attacking a project armed with knowledge is a great thing, experimentation is half the fun IMO. Being an inventor I know that there are just going to be times that no matter how much knowledge one has on any given subject, sometimes you just have to throw caution to the wind and just actually try things.
Lord knows, if we did not have an inventive spirit and only relied on hard data, we still would not even have a light bulb, much less this computer we sit in front of to debate such things.
The only thing worth considering is where are you at now with what you have, and what is the worst thing that could happen if you went ahead and tried something? Answer that and it doesn't matter one bit what anyone else thinks.
I believe you can shrink the interior dimensions of a cab using styrofoam "boards". By that I mean the sheets of firm harder form soemtimes used in packing and insulation. Perhaps that could allow you a bit better flexibility with speakers.
+1. For some years now I have been trying different cabs out, famous and not so famous " boutique " cabs, small company cabs, etc., correctly tuned , ported, with the best new drivers and designs. I'm not gonna name names, and I know these cabs receive a ton of praise, but , to me, they were less than what I thought I was getting. I have decided to go back to the sound I love, with " out of date " drivers and God forbid, a tweeter without a midrange. In the end, it's the sound in your head that you want, and I found that sound long ago, but felt that I should be using these new designs and drivers. One of the rigs I have is probably the most mismatched combo out there, but sounds beautiful to my ears, and I get compliments on my tone frequently. Definitely the wrong driver for this rig on paper, but, in the real world of gigging, it could'nt sound better to me.
So I actually decided to fool around with WinISD a bit this morning. I am a bit confused about all the things I should be looking out for, though I am having fun messing around with the tunings. I entered all three speakers- the Basslite, 3015, and 3015LF.
With the current port tuning, which is approximately 40Hz, the 3015LF and Basslite seem to have the best response- both having a mid-bass hump (the hump on the Basslite is much stronger), with the Basslite having much better midrange response. The biggest issue I see with the Basslite is that it has a pretty major dip in low-end power handling- at the current tuning, it has a huge dip down to a power handling of 100 watts centered at 69Hz. How I should read this, I'm not sure!
Raising the port tuning to around 52Hz or so really seems to even out the low/low-mid response of the 3015, though it never seems to get the hump in that freq region that the other two seem to have inherently (about 2dB at 70HZ peak for the LF and 3.5dB at 88HZ for the Basslite). The response of the 3015 seems more or less "flat" in comparison to the other 2, with a relatively flat response from 70HZ to 600HZ (with a bit of a peak at 350 or so and a bit of a dip at the bottom end).
If it wasn't for that huge dip in power handling in the upper bass region of the Basslite, I'd say that it looks to me to be a decent drop in replacement. But because it is a 4 ohm speaker, it would be pulling almost twice the power from my amp and I'm worried that the power handling would severely limit any benefits I would gain from the extra power on tap! With the port tuning raised to 52Hz, the dip in power handling shrunk a bit (so it could take about 130 watts, but at 80Hz...). It does seem to have a really nice looking upper-bass/low-mid response, but raising the port tuning to 52 HZ makes the peak at 86Hz pretty dramatic (3.5dB). It does seem that this peak in response would mean that I wouldn't need to push the speaker with much low end, but I don't want to push it!
The 3015LF has a pretty nice looking upper bass hump, especially at the higher port tuning, though it has a noticeable drop in upper midrange respose in comparison to the other 2 speakers. The frequency response in combo with the midrange driver and power handling (this speaker doesn't seem to have any dip in low end power handling) make it look like the best speaker for this box out of these 3. Its just a shame that it's not 4 ohms. Then again, using a 4 ohm speaker like the Basslite means I'll have to worry about a new crossover and probably new mid driver (though I wouldn't mind losing that 16 pounds anyway!).
Any opinions on the low end power handling dips of the Basslite and how it might apply to a real life gigging situation with 300 watts input power capacity?
Thanks,
Karl
With the current port tuning, which is approximately 40Hz, the 3015LF and Basslite seem to have the best response- both having a mid-bass hump (the hump on the Basslite is much stronger), with the Basslite having much better midrange response. The biggest issue I see with the Basslite is that it has a pretty major dip in low-end power handling- at the current tuning, it has a huge dip down to a power handling of 100 watts centered at 69Hz. How I should read this, I'm not sure!
Raising the port tuning to around 52Hz or so really seems to even out the low/low-mid response of the 3015, though it never seems to get the hump in that freq region that the other two seem to have inherently (about 2dB at 70HZ peak for the LF and 3.5dB at 88HZ for the Basslite). The response of the 3015 seems more or less "flat" in comparison to the other 2, with a relatively flat response from 70HZ to 600HZ (with a bit of a peak at 350 or so and a bit of a dip at the bottom end).
If it wasn't for that huge dip in power handling in the upper bass region of the Basslite, I'd say that it looks to me to be a decent drop in replacement. But because it is a 4 ohm speaker, it would be pulling almost twice the power from my amp and I'm worried that the power handling would severely limit any benefits I would gain from the extra power on tap! With the port tuning raised to 52Hz, the dip in power handling shrunk a bit (so it could take about 130 watts, but at 80Hz...). It does seem to have a really nice looking upper-bass/low-mid response, but raising the port tuning to 52 HZ makes the peak at 86Hz pretty dramatic (3.5dB). It does seem that this peak in response would mean that I wouldn't need to push the speaker with much low end, but I don't want to push it!
The 3015LF has a pretty nice looking upper bass hump, especially at the higher port tuning, though it has a noticeable drop in upper midrange respose in comparison to the other 2 speakers. The frequency response in combo with the midrange driver and power handling (this speaker doesn't seem to have any dip in low end power handling) make it look like the best speaker for this box out of these 3. Its just a shame that it's not 4 ohms. Then again, using a 4 ohm speaker like the Basslite means I'll have to worry about a new crossover and probably new mid driver (though I wouldn't mind losing that 16 pounds anyway!).
Any opinions on the low end power handling dips of the Basslite and how it might apply to a real life gigging situation with 300 watts input power capacity?
Thanks,
Karl
You seem to have a good grip on WinISD. And yes, what you are seeing is about right for the Basslite. It's the reason I use it (and at the time I wanted two 4 ohm 15's). They handle a lot more power than you would think, though of course as you mentioned in that cab it will drop considerably in the low end. It just won't put out a lot of deep lows. However it will put out a ton of upper bass/lo-mid (which is where most commercial cabs are designed to appear louder). Just because a speaker cab can't handle a lot of deep lows doesn't mean one has to EQ it in. Most of what we hear as deep bass isn't the fundamental anyway, but rather harmonics above that.
But, I think with your mid-range speaker, you'd be happiest with the 3015LF because even if you don't want to add a lot of low end, it will handle a lot of power with it's huge xmax. And again, wattage is one of the least important specs. Even though the 3015 can handle 450 watts and even if you had an amp that put out 450 watts, it's doubtful that for even the loudest of gigs you'd ever put more than 200 watts into it (continuously).
With regards to the Basslite. I have two in my cab (a 600 watt cab) and I run it on one side of my Carvin BX1200 (600 watts into 2 ohms...and yes I wired my 15's up as a 2 ohm load). Now even though my amp puts out a max of 600 watts on that side, my speakers never see that (well, continuously anyway). I seldom have my pre above 3 or the Master above 4 and my 215 with those Basslite's is unbelievably loud at those settings. For the most part I'm probably only running at about 100 watts or a tad bit more. I also have 50Hz and 80Hz cut on my EQ so I'm not needing a lot of power to make my cab loud (and that will also help protect the overexcursion from the low end somewhat).
Deep lows eat up gobs of power and they also push the speaker harder. Upper bass and lo-mids aren't as power hungry and if you design your cab to have that mid hump it will put out more volume with less power. How it sounds to you tonally, is your call. I find it helps the bass to cut through and sit in the mix better than having a lot of deep low end on stage. But that's me.
The 3015 is a real good full range woofer where you might not even want a dedicated mid driver. The 3015LF needs one as speakers that are designed to handle the deep lows will not handle the upper mids and highs very well (there is always a trade off). The Basslite to me is a very good bass cab driver for those wanting strong upper bass/lo-mid content and adding a dedicated mid driver will give you a very loud bass cab that also sound quite smooth throughout.
I used a single Basslite in a 115 along with my 4.5 mids in their own little cab for a while and it handled all my indoor gigs. I never had a chance to try it on a large, or outdoor gig though. I always had the other 115 for those gigs. You won't know until you try.
Hey Karl,
If you do end up replacing the speakers I'd love to buy the 15L from you. I have just built my second TL-606 cabinet and would like a 15L to match the first.
Cheers, Ray
If you do end up replacing the speakers I'd love to buy the 15L from you. I have just built my second TL-606 cabinet and would like a 15L to match the first.
Cheers, Ray
