Speaker ideas for old EV B115-M cab (15" and 6")...

[sunbeast]

Hey Karl,

If you do end up replacing the speakers I'd love to buy the 15L from you. I have just built my second TL-606 cabinet and would like a 15L to match the first.

Cheers, Ray

I'll let you know- though it will probably be a while before I can be sure that I want to sell the original parts (have to make sure I prefer the newer speakers!).

Thanks,
Karl

 

[Jim C]

I had what seems to be a good idea today regarding the B115M cabinet assuming the following criteria:

* We like the sound of these cabs as designed
* We are looking for greater power handling and greater XMAX

Rather than play around with computer simulation, whay not just ask the guys that MAKE the speaker which is the closest crossover to a EVM 15L?

Here is the reply from Eminence:

Hi Jim,

Our closest speaker to an EVM15L is the Delta Pro 15A. A similar speaker in neo is our Deltalite II 2515.

http://eminence.com/proaudio_speake...DELTALITE-II2515&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=3


Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker LLC
[email protected]
502-845-5622 ext. 341

I know nothing about these but am thinking that the closest driver to the original should best preserve the sound of these cabinets (which I love).

Anybody find fault with this logic and/or have any opinions of these drivers and which one would be a better choice?

 

[andertone]

Hi:

Still have my 70s era B215M. Will never sell it, with a MusicMan HD130 it sounds great, perfect bar amp

And I have a Eden WT400, Shuttle 6.0, Berg HT112, Epi T112 and T212 cabinets, there just is something about the old 2 x 15" setup through a tube amp
at cranked levels

Phil Anderson

 

[JimmyM]

Jim, i think other than a little increased power handling, the delta would be a lateral move at best. maybe i'd use it if it was empty, but not if it already had an ev speaker in it.

 

[sunbeast]

I plotted the Deltalite out of curiosity, and it doesn't appear to be a very good fit in comparison to the other choices- it would only take about 40 watts at 70Hz or so before bottoming out if you were to put it in with the current port tuning, so pretty much as Jimmy said- not really an upgrade except for lower weight!

The most promising looking speaker of all of them that I have plotted so far has been the B&C 15 hpl76w. It has the flattest response of any of the speakers (Basslite, Deltalite, and both Kappalites), seems to fit well with the existing port tuning (though it looks like it might be slightly better with a 45Hz tuning vs. the current 39 HZ), handles plenty of power (including low end power), and is available in either 4 or 8 ohms. The downside is that it costs over $200!

The next best choice as far as I can see is the Kappalite 3015LF (at least in combo with a mid driver). The Basslite has some good looking attributes, but does not take a whole lot of power and is only available in 4 ohms (and so would be recieving more power than any of the other options). The Basslite and Deltalite actually appear to have somewhat similar frequency curves, though the Basslite can handle over twice the low end power (which is still only about 100 watts, compared to around 200 for the next lowest handling speaker in the group). The normal Kappalite does not appear to be a good match for this size of box based on the frequency curve.

Karl

 

[Jim C]

Thanks for the input guys.

Sunbeast, could you also model the EVM15L?
Am curious as to:
* If the Eminence speakers offer similar performance (or perhaps better/worse) at least in simulation
* If the EV speaker also doesn't spec out so well, perhaps I like a tecnicaly incorrect cabinet

 

[Jaco who?]

When reading raw speaker specs where do you see the thermal rating?

It's "Pe" under theile small specs, also in general specs as RMS.

Late to the party here, I'd just try a 3015LF and see how it works.

You could always build another box for it and put the EV back in if the port chuffing and or crossover drives you nuts. All this hemming and hawing makes for an interesting read, but 4 cubic ft, what the heck, just do it.

 

[sunbeast]

Thanks for the input guys.

Sunbeast, could you also model the EVM15L?
Am curious as to:
* If the Eminence speakers offer similar performance (or perhaps better/worse) at least in simulation
* If the EV speaker also doesn't spec out so well, perhaps I like a tecnicaly incorrect cabinet

I looked around for all the info for the 15L, but I couldn't find some of the specs necessary to model with WinISD Alpha. I was able to find enough to model it in Beta, and the frequency curve for the 15L in this box was pretty horrible looking to be honest- just a pretty steady drop to the left in frequency response, with the -3dB actually occuring above 100 Hz (so actually worse on paper than even the 3015). It is by far the worst looking of any of the drivers throughout the lows and low midrange, though the upper midrange sensitivity looks pretty good (I think I read that upper mids/highs don't really model well for larger speakers though- and these would be covered by the other driver). In all honesty, probably any of the drivers we are talking about would be an improvement tonally (at least in the low end- and the highs/mids are covered by the mid speaker). This box is a bit odd, because it seems like the bulk of the frequency response of the 15L in this box is already covered by the mid speaker, so the 15 ends up getting pretty much washed out by the smaller speaker. I bet the 15L and mid speaker combo would have worked out much better in a smaller box (it looks like both the 15L and 3015 really favor a smaller box). I actually really like the bright nature of this cab though- it puts to shame any other cab I've ever had clarity wise.

The problem with WinISD Beta is that you can't look at much apart from SPL and Frequency response graphs- no Cone excursion/Max Power graphs. I would guess that the 15L would be pretty similar or worse in low end power handling than the Deltalite based on the X-max though.

I think Jaco Who might be right regarding the 3015LF. I just have yet to decide if I want to invest in the B&C first (which I could also use in a different box if it didn't work out as well here). I forgot to mention that it is also a neo speaker...

Karl

 

[Jim C]

Thanks Sunbeast,
One other thought; the cabinet (IMO) sounds decent with the mid range turned off and isn't all that noticeable at -12 and -6 when used with a LMII set flat and a Jbass.

Jaco, the reason I'm hesitant in using the 3015 LF is that the original EVM 15L is more of a full range speaker and wonder if the mid range is really going to have enough ummph with a dedicated low freq driver; the XMAX and cabinet size requirements for this driver do seem very attractive though; downside is if the LF doesn't work I don't have another use for it; if the standard 3015 doesn't work, I could use it in a TL 606 cab

I'm not familiar with B&C as a speaker brand; who are these guys that make the perfect speaker for my odd ball box?

 

[rpsands]

Remember that 100 watt sine waves handling <100hz means it can probably handle 300+ watts of bass guitar.

B&C makes great speakers, but they are expensive.

 

[greenboy]

If the crossover was designed right the midrange should be handling the midrange frequencies. So a woofer's output in that passband is fairly irrelevant unless the thing really has a complex crossover (which shows intent to address only specific drivers).

The crossover components and wiring, the NET internal box size, and the tuning will tell you what you need to know.

 

[sunbeast]

Remember that 100 watt sine waves handling <100hz means it can probably handle 300+ watts of bass guitar.

Yeah- I am trying to figure how to correctly evaluate that aspect. I mean- lots of folks have used the 15B speakers alone for years with tube amps putting out 200-300 watts or more in TL606 boxes and never had issues, but then I've also seen a whole lot of blown and reconed EVs.

On the liberal side, I could say- the Basslite looks great and should still be able to handle almost twice as much as a 15L in the low end on paper, and my current amp only has 300 watts to give it anyway. Then the conservative side thinks that I would still be pushing the limit on occasion (though this seems less and less likely with the musical direction I am going in). There is also the fact that I'd have to mess with the crossover to use the Basslite because it is a 4 ohm speaker. On the plus side, it is about half the price of the B&C, and has a low-mid hump that might actually be perfect for the sound I'm looking for and would allow me to use the full power from my amp (a double-edged sword)...

I'm having fun learning about speakers from the ground up, so I'm glad this whole experiment happened upon me- even if it doesn't end up creating the "ideal" cabinet in the end!

Karl

 

[Jim C]

Completely forgot the importance of impedance and the crossover.
What would it take to modify the crossover to work with a 4 ohm driver?

If not this, which is the best 8 ohm?

 

[sunbeast]

The only one not available in 8 ohms is the Basslite. I think the best at 8 ohms is probably the Kappalite 3015LF when you take cost into consideration (I think it is at least $50 less than the B&C). It looks like either of these speakers would perform better in this box with the tuning adjusted to about 45Hz or so (I don't think I'd want to tune it much higher than that)- this flattens out a downward slope in the bass response on both speakers. This would require cutting both of the port tubes to about 4.5" long (I measured them as they are to be about 6.75"). It looks like either would work alright without adjusting the tuning, but the bass rolloff will start to occur at a higher frequency.
I'm not completely sure what would need to be changed on the crossover to use a 4 ohm driver, as I have yet to pull out the crossover and see what it is.

Karl

 

[rpsands]

You are going to want to rewire the crossover and replace the midrange anyway, IMHO. Having a 4 ohm cab will probably benefit you with a lower wattage head.

 

[Jim C]

For me, if it takes a new midrange and more than a simple change to the crossover it's not worth the effort.
Have noticed that with limiting (or even compression) and a flat EQ, the box does get pretty loud with stock drivers assuming the playing is even and without huge dynamics (like slapping).

Also realized how stupid I've been in comparing it to a TL606 that has been on a stand approx 30" off the floor; the TL sounded 100% better tonight sitting on the floor.

 

[sunbeast]

For me, if it takes a new midrange and more than a simple change to the crossover it's not worth the effort.
Have noticed that with limiting (or even compression) and a flat EQ, the box does get pretty loud with stock drivers assuming the playing is even and without huge dynamics (like slapping).

Also realized how stupid I've been in comparing it to a TL606 that has been on a stand approx 30" off the floor; the TL sounded 100% better tonight sitting on the floor.

So are you using this in combo with a TL606, or just comparing them side by side? I'd be interested to know the difference tonally between the 115-M with the mid turned off and the 606- I'm assuming the 606 has one of the later 115Bs in it?

Karl

 

[Jim C]

Just comparing side by side
Currently the 606 has an older 400 watt Carvin in place although when I swapped out the original 15L the tone was VERY similar; have not A/B'd with mid range off but will do so over the weekend; my guess is that I will continue to like the 115M as the sizzle even with the Lpad at -6 is very nice; don't think the difference between the 2 will be huge but will report back

 

[Lo-E]

I'm resurrecting this older thread as I have recently found myself in the OP's shoes.

An old B115M came my way at a good price, and like the OP I wanted to increase the power handling and drop the weight, but basically liked the way it sounded.

After reading as much as I could on it, I ended up calling Al at US Speaker Parts, who suggested a 400W Faital neo 15 and the 6" Alphalite closed-back for the mid driver. He modeled it while I waited on the phone and suggested I cut the ports down a bit to retune the cab to the mid-40s (about 46Hz, I think he said), and to replace the crossover with something a little beefier.

So far, I have made an adaptor plate to mount the mid with and replaced both drivers. I must admit it sounds pretty close to the way it did before. The cab weighs 30 Lbs less now!! My next step will be to shorten the port tubes, as per his suggestion, and to address the crossover issue.

That's where I'd like some advice. The only thing I noticed right away with the new drivers was that it seemed like I could hear the individual drivers more easily than before. With the old drivers, it was harder to discern where one picked up and the other left off. That might also be a side effect of neither being broken in yet, but I just think the old crossover was better suited to the old drivers. I'd like to try and smooth out the transition between the two if I can.

Al felt that this particular pair of drivers could really be crossed over anywhere from 600 to almost 2K, and it would really be a matter of preference for me. He though 1.6K would sound good, but I just don't know enough about this stuff. The original crossover point (with the original drivers, of course) is 600Hz. I have no problem with buying parts and rolling my own crossover, but it's not something I've ever experimented with before. I understand what a crossover is doing, but I'd like some advice from those of you who have rolled lots of crossovers about what the effects are - in bassist terms - of changing the crossover point in a two-way cab.

I know describing what something sounds like can be pretty absurd, but try me. I'd just like to know what I should expect to hear if I start moving that 600 Hz crossover point up in a cab like this.

Thanks-
E

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I'd just like to know what I should expect to hear if I start moving that 600 Hz crossover point up in a cab like this.

A lot less stress on the mid driver. There's no reason to cross a fifteen lower than 800Hz, and 1kHz isn't the least bit out of line.