Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation

[JimmyM]

I think he's trying to say that a lot of people just take the info on TB and run with it without really putting any independent thought into it or using some comparative research. As Dan Brown would say: PDBAZ. Please Don't Be A Zombie

there are a handful of people i do that with on here. why? because i've actually tested some of their postulations against stuff i thought i knew before i started hanging in the amps forum, and they're usually right. so now i take their word as gospel.

however...it doesn't mean i necessarily believe in everything they say as it applies to my thing. i still love svt 810's even though i can easily hear them beaming, for example. i would still use a delta 15a over a kappalite 3015 if someone's looking for an old school tone. but i still fully accept that they're not adhering to the rules of quality audio reproduction. audio physics don't change just because you like something.

 

[rpsands]

There is nothing wrong with a midbass heavy stuffed 2x15 if that's the tone you're after. Nothing at all. Use what generates your tone, but it's worth knowing why, and that you could achieve a close enough with any size driver provided the right TS specs and enclosure.

To generalize even more there is nothing NOTHING wrong with using a speaker cabinet as part of your instrument rather than using it to reproduce the sound of your instrument alone. Guitar players do this all the world over.

Some people want to eke every scrap of performance you can out of each pound of gear, however, and 'speaker is my instrument' guys need to realize that's a valid approach. In all likelihood, it's a more serviceable attitude for most bass players as well...because what most bass players are concerned with is:

-is it loud enough?
-is it low enough?

In that order. Sounding good tonally is all relative to the player, and depends so much on technique and bass and string selection that worrying about something you can change easily (Input tone) is a lot easier.

 

[buchanan6694]

Hey everyone, thought I'd add my two cents about bass cabs. IME, the amps running the speakers/cabs, the room your in, or not in (outside?), the preamp, all these add to the sound. Or detract from it. I loved my old SVT w/810 cab. It sounded great, then add the drums, guitar, etc.., OH YEAH!
But take the SVT head away, and run someting else through that cabinet, not the same, right? As for the room, I once had a peavey MK III BASS head and 410 cab. Inside was OK, but put that rig on an outdoor stage, and it had lots more "punch", almost like it was running through a comp. Also the last but not least factor, the "to me" phrase. It's been said on this forum a million times. Try every amp/cab you can and get what sounds best to you.

*you guys have no idea how long it took me to type that, thanks for letting me chime in, take care.

 

[onionpuzzle]

I'd love an 8 x 10....and a roadie to go along with it....

My Berg 322 (1x12 and 2x10 in one cabinet) has made my speaker cab dreams come true.

And a 1x12 Mesa Cab for the small gigs.

I've seen these rockers with 8x10/ svt's with crappy sound because they don't know how to EQ their bass or amp properly. Makes a difference !

 

[Kwesi]

I think the topics gotten lost a little bit. I completely understand and support the notion that different stuff works for different people but I want to know the relationship that people have found, if any, between speaker size and tone.

 

[JimmyM]

I think the topics gotten lost a little bit. I completely understand and support the notion that different stuff works for different people but I want to know the relationship that people have found, if any, between speaker size and tone.

beaming is pretty consistent to speaker size. other than that, pretty much nothing.

 

[Plstrns]

Speakers are sound reinforcement's weak link. Enclosure design makes all the difference.

 

[onionpuzzle]

My point was that proper EQ settings are more important than speaker size as far as Tone goes.

You'd have to A/B a 1x10 VS a 1x15 of the same manufacturer with the same bass, amp and settings to hear a difference I think (but only think...I have never done it).

 

[rpsands]

Give me two amps with a 9 band graphic eq and a 2x10 cab, and a 1x15 cab, and no one will ever guess better than chance which is which.

 

[Kwesi]

My point was that proper EQ settings are more important than speaker size as far as Tone goes.

You'd have to A/B a 1x10 VS a 1x15 of the same manufacturer with the same bass, amp and settings to hear a difference I think (but only think...I have never done it).

All due respect I don't believe that at at all. There is no amount of EQ that could make a Markbass 104HR sound like the 151HR or make the Traveler 102P sound like the 121P. EQ is important but as far as I'm concerned it only molds tone, it doesn't create it. A bass, amp and cab I believe are the foundation of tone everything else builds on that foundation. For me personally, my gear doesn't sound good completely flat it won't be around long enough to see if it sounds good otherwise.

 

[onionpuzzle]

agreed ^^ but what about a 1x10 and a 1x15 ?

 

[JimmyM]

All due respect I don't believe that at at all. There is no amount of EQ that could make a Markbass 104HR sound like the 151HR or make the Traveler 102P sound like the 121P. EQ is important but as far as I'm concerned it only molds tone, it doesn't create it. A bass, amp and cab I believe are the foundation of tone everything else builds on that foundation. For me personally, my gear doesn't sound good completely flat it won't be around long enough to see if it sounds good otherwise.

ya, i got sucked into that vortex for a little while, but then a wise man said to me, "if you're getting the sound you like, knob position really doesn't matter." i had to agree with him.

 

[seamonkey]

I get great sound out of ear buds. IEMs have great sound. They're little small speakers.
It's impractical to give the whole audience ear buds but you can give them a good FOH.

FOH pros aren't going to go by speaker size. The pros are going to go by actual sound measurements. If they're any good at their jobs and want to keep getting jobs.

 

[onionpuzzle]

sorry I am no good at putting quotes in.....

RE : Kwesi --- we must be thinking of different definitions of the word tone. I view tone as the final product -- what the ear hears-- not necessarily how the flat sound of the bass/amp/speaker are. A tone that is sculpted with EQ is the final result -- what the ear hears, so that is my basis for saying eq is more important than speaker size.

 

[rpsands]

All due respect I don't believe that at at all. There is no amount of EQ that could make a Markbass 104HR sound like the 151HR or make the Traveler 102P sound like the 121P. EQ is important but as far as I'm concerned it only molds tone, it doesn't create it. A bass, amp and cab I believe are the foundation of tone everything else builds on that foundation. For me personally, my gear doesn't sound good completely flat it won't be around long enough to see if it sounds good otherwise.

You need to spend more time working with a high quality full parametric eq or working in live sound before you make a blanket statement like this.

Tone is frequency response. You can take that to the bank.

Go look into autoeq in PA usage, for a starting point. Almost every high end PA rig is about as flat as a Camel's back before the autoeq smooths everything out.

 

[rpsands]

Note, regarding tone = frequency response -- there are a lot of "seeming" intangibles with speakers, but this pretty much boils down to unique breakup modes (e.g. speaker distortion) at certain frequencies. This accounts for the tonal differences between say, a JBL K145 and a Kappalite 3015.

On the upside it's pretty easy to do a good enough of a job simulating that that most people can't tell the difference. There's always a human element of course, but by and large the rule holds. FR = Tone.

 

[Kwesi]

You need to spend more time working with a high quality full parametric eq or working in live sound before you make a blanket statement like this.

Tone is frequency response. You can take that to the bank.

Go look into autoeq in PA usage, for a starting point. Almost every high end PA rig is about as flat as a Camel's back before the autoeq smooths everything out.

I'm not saying that EQ can't drastically alter sound but certain things are built into the cab that, at the very least, would be extremely difficult to replicate in cabs of other designs. There are some that just sound naturally similar and EQ could give it that extra push but I don't believe you can make one specific cab sound like another just by EQ.

All that aside, I doubt that many bassists would be able to tell the difference between a good 15 and a good 12 or 10 blindfolded anyway

Isn't EQ usually "the fixer"? I've played enough gigs to know that the PA is never flat, be it due to the speakers used or the environment their placed in but isn't that where EQ steps in to handle business? Not to make some things sound like other things.

 

[onionpuzzle]

Isn't EQ usually "the fixer"? I've played enough gigs to know that the PA is never flat, be it due to the speakers used or the environment their placed in but isn't that where EQ steps in to handle business? Not to make some things sound like other things.

I would imagine it depends on the band, the music, and where the bass fits in with the mix of instruments.

I think flat EQ is boring. I am certainly not "fixing" anything by using EQ.

I know this digresses from the OP about speaker size, but tangents are inevitable.

 

[rpsands]

I'm not saying that EQ can't drastically alter sound but certain things are built into the cab that, at the very least, would be extremely difficult to replicate in cabs of other designs. There are some that just sound naturally similar and EQ could give it that extra push but I don't believe you can make one specific cab sound like another just by EQ.

Like what? What is it that speaker cabs do other than make sound waves with given frequencies?

All the things built into the cabinet affect one thing: Frequency response.

-Stuff a driver with a huge vas and low qts into a tiny box, get a crapload of upper bass output.

-Tune an enclosure really high, get a steep rolloff after the tuning frequency

-Angle a baffle (e.g. like a Schroeder cabinet), get a cut in the midrange

-Push a speaker past xmax, get harmonic distortion (characteristics of which vary by driver)

 

[rpsands]

Isn't EQ usually "the fixer"? I've played enough gigs to know that the PA is never flat, be it due to the speakers used or the environment their placed in but isn't that where EQ steps in to handle business? Not to make some things sound like other things.

EQ is a tool used to sculpt sound in the way you want it. What you do with it is up to you.

There's no shame in using extreme settings if it gets what you want; try adding a +10db parametric boost, 1 octave Q, at 150hz, sometime. The sound will be so ridiculously fat you'll have a hard time telling it's the same cabinet.

Edit: One reason most people tend to eschew using eq is that most bass amplifiers have bloody useless eq sections, that are just not precise enough. Find a bass amp that'll let you add 150hz...pretty much one in five if that. Similarly, lots of them have poorly chosen bass frequency centers.