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Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation

#41
rpsands said:
EQ is a tool used to sculpt sound in the way you want it. What you do with it is up to you.

There's no shame in using extreme settings if it gets what you want; try adding a +10db parametric boost, 1 octave Q, at 150hz, sometime. The sound will be so ridiculously fat you'll have a hard time telling it's the same cabinet.

Edit: One reason most people tend to eschew using eq is that most bass amplifiers have bloody useless eq sections, that are just not precise enough. Find a bass amp that'll let you add 150hz...pretty much one in five if that. Similarly, lots of them have poorly chosen bass frequency centers.
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I think we're saying the same thing then, lol.

Sidenote: My Promethean has a 7-band graphic EQ that sounds great. It is, so far, the only head with as graphic EQ that I actually like.
 
#42
Kwesi said:
I've wanted to make this post for a while (like over a year) but I wanted to wait until I had gotten more cabs under my belt and I think that now, I do.

I constantly see things like "The punch of a 10.", "The low-end of a 15", and "12s are a compromise" but I don't hear any relation between them. It seems like the guys who really know speakers around hear seem to agree that the is none. I've found there to be much more relation between brand/series and tone than speaker size and tone. Here are some observations that I've made:

- I've played the Eden 410XLT, 115XLT, and 210XLT. The tonal difference? Barely any. The 410 sounded somewhat bigger that the 210, and the 15 had a more pronounced midrange punch than either but it wasn't a crazy big difference.

- The Epifani UL-110 Series 1 and the Epifani PS-112 both went "deeper" than the Eden cabs.

- I own a Hartke HX410 and a 5210 (210 airhead cab with a Hartke LH500 head) combo that was converted into a cab. The 410 goes deeper but the 210 has more punch and less highs.

- I played some cab (NV or something I forget) that had a 12 and a 10. It sucked. It had no highs, no mids, and the lows were really muddy.

- I owned a Markbass 104HR for a short time. It is, without a doubt, the single deepest sounding cab I've ever played through. That includes a Hartke Pro 1800 118 cab. The Markbass 104HR had strong low mids and muted highs.

- I've also played through the Markbass 151HR, Traveler 151P, some other Markbass 15 and the CMD Jeff Berlin 151P combo and they all sounded different.

- The EA NL110s are SUPER clean, like studio monitor clean with no big frequency bumps anywhere but the Wizzy 12s are huge sounding.

I've been lucky enough to played on some sweet cabs in the short time I've been playing bass but it seems like this relationship that I see/hear bassists talking about is more a psychological thing. I can understand the sort of quasi-logic that would suggest that a larger speaker would lead to a deeper sound without fail but it doesn't seem to hold up in real life, at least to me. Earlier in the post I mentioned that I noticed more tonal similarities within a brand name than a speaker size and I stand by that (Eden, Epifani) but it is by no means concrete (Markbass, EA). The only other observation of made is that 15s seem to have the best (most appealing to me) midrange and that cabs with dedicated midranges drivers have a less naturally scooped tone, who woulda' thought :p.

I guess what I want to know hear is do so many really believe this? I don't mean to sound condescending or anything. What I mean is that often times, I would think that I believe something but when I run back through specific examples I find that my so called "belief" has no actual basis. This thread, for example came about by that exact method. I'm thinking about cabs I'd like to own and I find myself looking at them and trying to guess how'd they'd sound based on speaker size but when I run back through what I've tried there's nothing to suggest that size would be a good indicator. I guess the original thought was that being able pick cabs based on size would help narrow down what I'd want but it turns out I can't making the cab decision much more difficult, lol. As a consequence I've become much more partial to cabs that I have already test driven.

Yeah, just something to think about. Think out loud, I'd love to hear others opinions :)
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I like how you say there's not much difference in sound between speaker sizes, then go on to describe in some detail the differences you hear (even within the same brands).
 
#43
Munjibunga said:
I like how you say there's not much difference in sound between speaker sizes, then go on to describe in some detail the differences you hear (even within the same brands).
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boy, for a hyper elite member, you sure misread the thread title. he said there was no CORRELATION with sound between speaker sizes, and the whole point of his post was to say that different cabs with the same size speakers sound different, thus proving that there is no correlation.
 
#46
JimmyM said:
boy, for a hyper elite member, you sure misread the thread title. he said there was no CORRELATION with sound between speaker sizes, and the whole point of his post was to say that different cabs with the same size speakers sound different, thus proving that there is no correlation.
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It doesn't prove that at all. It's analagous to Butthead's revelation that "just because one thing sucks doesn't mean something else doesn't." Just because two different 10-inch cabs sound different doesn't mean that 10-inch cabs and 15-inch cabs don't sound different.
 
#47
Munjibunga said:
It doesn't prove that at all. It's analagous to Butthead's revelation that "just because one thing sucks doesn't mean something else doesn't." Just because two different 10-inch cabs sound different doesn't mean that 10-inch cabs and 15-inch cabs don't sound different.
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Now that just sounds plain argumentative... but it makes sense :p. I didn't set out to prove or disprove anything, just give my impressions. I'd like to be able to empirically prove my "findings" but I feel like that would be damn near impossible and/or probably isn't really worth it. I guess it's along similar lines as the ides that "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
 
#48
Kwesi said:
I'm not saying that EQ can't drastically alter sound but certain things are built into the cab that, at the very least, would be extremely difficult to replicate in cabs of other designs. There are some that just sound naturally similar and EQ could give it that extra push but I don't believe you can make one specific cab sound like another just by EQ.



All things are relative, but you can get close if you have the right EQ.


"All that aside, I doubt that many bassists would be able to tell the difference between a good 15 and a good 12 or 10 blindfolded anyway :p" ....might be true.....pretty sure I could pretty quick, I have some bass buddies that are audio guys that are pretty sharp too.

Isn't EQ usually "the fixer"? I've played enough gigs to know that the PA is never flat, be it due to the speakers used or the environment their placed in but isn't that where EQ steps in to handle business? Not to make some things sound like other things.
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I think the point he is making is that the response of any two cabinets can be approximated by using a very flexible EQ.

Obviously if you have a 2/10 tweeter cab, a single 15 (say a JBL K-145) isn't going to come very close to matching..... EQ or no EQ won't make up for the fact that the single JBL woofer won't produce 16khz.
 
#49
Munjibunga said:
It doesn't prove that at all. It's analagous to Butthead's revelation that "just because one thing sucks doesn't mean something else doesn't." Just because two different 10-inch cabs sound different doesn't mean that 10-inch cabs and 15-inch cabs don't sound different.
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What exactly would it take to get you to admit that there is not a meaningful generalization about tone you can make based on the speaker size alone?

Each cabinet is different. That's what the OP is saying.

If you disagree and think you can generalize about a cab meaningfully based on its speaker size, well...ok. Arguing with someone who will believe something that is demonstrably false is pointless.
 
#50
rpsands said:
You need to spend more time working with a high quality full parametric eq or working in live sound before you make a blanket statement like this.

Tone is frequency response. You can take that to the bank.

Go look into autoeq in PA usage, for a starting point. Almost every high end PA rig is about as flat as a Camel's back before the autoeq smooths everything out.
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word. I use a DBX Driverack in my sound booth and can change the character of the sound system in my church drastically. The before and after settings tell the whole story. I can make Bose 802's sound like Bose 402's. :hiding:
 
#52
Munjibunga said:
It doesn't prove that at all. It's analagous to Butthead's revelation that "just because one thing sucks doesn't mean something else doesn't." Just because two different 10-inch cabs sound different doesn't mean that 10-inch cabs and 15-inch cabs don't sound different.
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you're saying 10"s and 15"s sound different. kwesi is saying 10"s of different brands and construction methods sound different, and so do 15"s. so what's the issue here? different cabs and drivers sound different.
 
#53
Kwesi said:
I constantly see things like "The punch of a 10.", "The low-end of a 15", and "12s are a compromise" but I don't hear any relation between them. It seems like the guys who really know speakers around hear seem to agree that the is none. I've found there to be much more relation between brand/series and tone than speaker size and tone.
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This is what I'm talking about.
 
#54
Kwesi said:
Now that just sounds plain argumentative... but it makes sense :p. I didn't set out to prove or disprove anything, just give my impressions. I'd like to be able to empirically prove my "findings" but I feel like that would be damn near impossible and/or probably isn't really worth it. I guess it's along similar lines as the ides that "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
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no, actually it proves it, as does the fact that you can look up the specs of any two drivers of the same size and get wildly different frequency specs. does a kappalite 3015lf sound like a beta 15? i don't think so. one's designed for subs, one's designed as a "full-range" driver. therefore, they'll never sound the same, despite being the same size.
 
#58
must say nothing really beats the midrange of a large 2x15 cab, not a wimpy little 1x 15" cabinet. every super tiny 1x15 ive played threw was a joke and anybody that thinks of that as "the sound" you get from a 15" has been denied what a 15 can really do. So yes unfortunatly everyone is biased about 10" and now 12" bass cabinets. because thats what the current market has supported for a long time now. everyone wants tiny light speakers and when you stuff a 15 or 2x12 in a tiny little box, even with large ports will sound like poo. Thats where all these " computer designed" cabinets started to appear. Some how "sound engineers" needed a computer to convince them that sticking large speakers in a small box, sounds good. this many liters of air space...blah blah with a port length of this blah blah blah is a perfect computer model of a ideal enclosure for this driver.......drum roll please......(buzzer)ehhhhh.....wrong.

two cabinets of any value,
Sunn 200s with original D or K series JBL's
Acoustic 301 with original Cerwin Vega 3ohm speaker.
these speakers handle less watts than "modern" drivers but the voice coil, cone and magnets are of superior design. modern drivers are designed to dissipate high power, the older drivers i listed above are designed to reproduce sound accurately. As far as the BS myth that it would take 6x15's or 4x18's to equal one 8x10. here is the real world test. You walk in a room with one ampeg 8x10 cabinet with a wimpy 150watt amp. I walk into a room with a wimpy 150watt amp also with 4 Acoustic 301 cabs. (each cab has one 18 so a total of 4 cabs to equal 4x18)
we both turn the amps all the way up and play. for some reason if you think your single cab will out do the 4 cabs. your smoking crack because 4 x18 speakers would not even fit into one 8x10 hence your theory of an 80" air column has been destroyed. and i don't need a computer model to prove it.
all i hear is 200 able bodied men crying:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:
its too big, its too hard to carry......sorry guys not trying to be a jerk,
good sound= big and accurate
Bad sound= small and over powered
most important thing thou is, save the whales and practice:bassist: and ignore jerks like me
Computers are good for 3 things warfare, free downloads and Porn
 
#59
BogeyBass said:
must say nothing really beats the midrange of a large 2x15 cab, not a wimpy little 1x 15" cabinet. every super tiny 1x15 ive played threw was a joke and anybody that thinks of that as "the sound" you get from a 15" has been denied what a 15 can really do. So yes unfortunatly everyone is biased about 10" and now 12" bass cabinets. because thats what the current market has supported for a long time now. everyone wants tiny light speakers and when you stuff a 15 or 2x12 in a tiny little box, even with large ports will sound like poo. Thats where all these " computer designed" cabinets started to appear. Some how "sound engineers" needed a computer to convince them that sticking large speakers in a small box, sounds good. this many liters of air space...blah blah with a port length of this blah blah blah is a perfect computer model of a ideal enclosure for this driver.......drum roll please......(buzzer)ehhhhh.....wrong.

two cabinets of any value,
Sunn 200s with original D or K series JBL's
Acoustic 301 with original Cerwin Vega 3ohm speaker.
these speakers handle less watts than "modern" drivers but the voice coil, cone and magnets are of superior design. modern drivers are designed to dissipate high power, the older drivers i listed above are designed to reproduce sound accurately. As far as the BS myth that it would take 6x15's or 4x18's to equal one 8x10. here is the real world test. You walk in a room with one ampeg 8x10 cabinet with a wimpy 150watt amp. I walk into a room with a wimpy 150watt amp also with 4 Acoustic 301 cabs. (each cab has one 18 so a total of 4 cabs to equal 4x18)
we both turn the amps all the way up and play. for some reason if you think your single cab will out do the 4 cabs. your smoking crack because 4 x18 speakers would not even fit into one 8x10 hence your theory of an 80" air column has been destroyed. and i don't need a computer model to prove it.
all i hear is 200 able bodied men crying:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:
its too big, its too hard to carry......sorry guys not trying to be a jerk,
good sound= big and accurate
Bad sound= small and over powered
most important thing thou is, save the whales and practice:bassist: and ignore jerks like me
Computers are good for 3 things warfare, free downloads and Porn
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