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Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation

#65
Let It Fall said:
Thank you!

And for the record I have only owned 10s and 12s.

Avatar 2x10
Ampeg 8x10
Ampeg 4x10
Aguiar 1x12
Aguilar 2x12
Markbass 1x12
KRK 5" Monitor [Seriously]

So im really not baised against smaller speakers.
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That is a very narrow range of cabinets to base your experience on. Once you play another hundred or so with 10's, 12's and 15's by a variety of manufacturers, you will realize that, as the OP says, there is literally a zero correlation between cone size and 'tone'.

IMO and a lot of IME.
 
#66
Munjibunga said:
It doesn't prove that at all. It's analagous to Butthead's revelation that "just because one thing sucks doesn't mean something else doesn't." Just because two different 10-inch cabs sound different doesn't mean that 10-inch cabs and 15-inch cabs don't sound different.
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You are missing his point. ALL speaker cabs sound different, but it has nothing to do with the size of the driver. There are bloomy, boomy, thuddy sounding 115 cabs, and there are tight, grindy, crisp sounding 115's. There are 8" loaded cabs that sound like subwoofers, and 18 loaded cabs that totally roll off at 150 hz, etc., etc., etc.

Attributing the difference in sound across cabs to cone size is a classic oversimplification, similar to 'neck through versus bolt-on neck design, etc., etc.

Human beings tend to attribute differences across things to the easiest identifiable feature of those things (racial stereotypes are the most insidious case of this).
 
#69
bassybill said:
If there are no inherent differences between driver sizes, why do they pretty much always use big drivers in, for example, PA subs?

Genuinely curious here.
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I assume that for subwoofers in high sound pressure situations, a larger single driver, correctly tuned, will push more air down low than a single smaller driver (although you could tune the cabs to the same frequency regardless of driver size.

So, I assume it is a matter of efficiency, being able to use a single 15 or 18 versus multiple smaller drivers to generate the same sound pressure level at a given tuning. My guess is, you could achieve the same performance with arrays of 10" drivers, but that would be heavier and more expensive.

This brings up a good point (based on my layman's knowledge).... if you are talking about single driver executions (i.e., comparing a 110, a 112 and a 115), while they could all be tuned to sound exactly the same if that's the way the drivers and boxes were designed, the sound pressure level would increase with the size of driver and the size of the box (I think). However, once you start comparing 'cabinets' and not drivers (i.e., a 210 versus a 115, 4x8, etc.) the driver size issue is greatly diminished

I think what some of us are talking about is the issue of 'adding a 115 cab to a 410 cab to get more bottom' or whatever. That makes little sense these days as an absolute.
 
#70
KJung said:
ALL speaker cabs sound different, but it has nothing to do with the size of the driver.
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+1
Take for example three or four different 4x10 cabs that are similarly designed, utilizing almost identical Eminence drivers. Each cab will sound different from the rest, perhaps not vastly different, but different enough that you can tell it. One example being an Avatar vs. a Carvin 4x10.
 
#71
This is the never ending debate! I've been playing and gigging for 30 years and I have come to realise that it's impossible to be categoric about which combination is better because there are so many variables, room or gig size, closed vs open air venue, wooden stage vs concrete floor, acoustics, amp eq settings etc etc the range of sound changing circumstances is endless. In my experience what sounds like the bleedin' obvious is true - the larger the cab/driver combination, the warmer, fuller and more supportive sound it gives to a band, especially playing larger and ESPECIALLY open air or marquis gigs. I have obtained very satisfactory results with small 10" and 12" cabs in small pub venues, using the excellent Markbass Mini CMD121P, and the new Orange SP210 is also excellent for this size venue. But my favourite cab, still, after all these years, for larger and especially open air/marquis gigs is the Orange OBC115 - absolutely superb cabinet - not too expensive and not too heavy.
 
#72
philtoler said:
This is the never ending debate! I've been playing and gigging for 30 years and I have come to realise that it's impossible to be categoric about which combination is better because there are so many variables, room or gig size, closed vs open air venue, wooden stage vs concrete floor, acoustics, amp eq settings etc etc the range of sound changing circumstances is endless. In my experience what sounds like the bleedin' obvious is true - the larger the cab/driver combination, the warmer, fuller and more supportive sound it gives to a band, especially playing larger and ESPECIALLY open air or marquis gigs. I have obtained very satisfactory results with small 10" and 12" cabs in small pub venues, using the excellent Markbass Mini CMD121P, and the new Orange SP210 is also excellent for this size venue. But my favourite cab, still, after all these years, for larger and especially open air/marquis gigs is the Orange OBC115 - absolutely superb cabinet - not too expensive and not too heavy.
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+1 regarding cab size all the way. A 410 is going to sound fuller and louder and less compressed than a 210 at high volume levels, all else being equal. Similarly, all other things being equal, a large single driver will generate more SPL than a small single driver (even if the tone/frequency response can be made to be very similar or identical).
 
#73
rpsands said:
EQ is a tool used to sculpt sound in the way you want it. What you do with it is up to you.

There's no shame in using extreme settings if it gets what you want; try adding a +10db parametric boost, 1 octave Q, at 150hz, sometime. The sound will be so ridiculously fat you'll have a hard time telling it's the same cabinet.

Edit: One reason most people tend to eschew using eq is that most bass amplifiers have bloody useless eq sections, that are just not precise enough. Find a bass amp that'll let you add 150hz...pretty much one in five if that. Similarly, lots of them have poorly chosen bass frequency centers.
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And I'd guess that ties into Kwesi's point... because bass rigs (which is what he's talking about) typically do not have fully parametric EQs. And as a performing bassist, I figured out that for myself, who has used parametric EQ in the past, it's much easier to simply find gear that reproduces sound in the manner I want vs. trying to mimic it with sometimes major tweaks.
 
#74
onionpuzzle said:
I would imagine it depends on the band, the music, and where the bass fits in with the mix of instruments.

I think flat EQ is boring. I am certainly not "fixing" anything by using EQ.

I know this digresses from the OP about speaker size, but tangents are inevitable.
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Of course you are... you're fixing what you consider boring sound.

I've found the opposite to be true... flat EQ can sound great if you understand how to get what you want. For example, flat EQ at low (bedroom) volume could sound dull or less full. But crank that amp up (if it's capable) and suddenly the sound can be much wider and more full.

I'm pretty sure my live sound is far from boring and I use flat EQ on my amp.
 
#75
bassybill said:
If there are no inherent differences between driver sizes, why do they pretty much always use big drivers in, for example, PA subs?
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Displacement and dispersion.

Lower frequencies need more driver displacement to be reproduced at the same level as higher frequencies; for each octave drop in frequency the displacement required for equal output doubles. To get the same displacement as one fifteen you can use four eights, but four eights will cost over twice as much as one fifteen of equal quality.

Dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the driver; when you double the diameter of the cone dispersion is halved. A simple rule of thumb is that you don't want the cone more than 1 wavelength in diameter, which means for best results fifteens are good to 1kHz, twelves to 1.3kHz, tens to 1.6kHz, eights to 2.1kHz.
 
#76
billfitzmaurice said:
Displacement and dispersion.

Lower frequencies need more driver displacement to be reproduced at the same level as higher frequencies; for each octave drop in frequency the displacement required for equal output doubles. To get the same displacement as one fifteen you can use four eights, but four eights will cost over twice as much as one fifteen of equal quality.

Dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the driver; when you double the diameter of the cone dispersion is halved. A simple rule of thumb is that you don't want the cone more than 1 wavelength in diameter, which means for best results fifteens are good to 1kHz, twelves to 1.3kHz, tens to 1.6kHz, eights to 2.1kHz.
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+1 Bill and Kjung said it better than I ever could have.
 
#78
I'm glad I'm not a Nube because if I was, and I read this thread, I'd probably be overwhelmed and confused and come away believing that in order to sound good, I'd need an 8-10 refrigerator, a 410 and a 210 neo cab, 2 - 212 cabs, a couple of 15's and at least 1 18" sub.

Listen folks, aren't we getting a little carried away here, with the infinite number of fabulous speaker/amp choices there are today - we can get to really splitting hairs about our personal sound choices.

Since A: All beliefs are true to their believer and
B: Supporting evidence can be found for any belief and
C: We're all human beings with our own preferences (wit: Chocolate, Vanilla and Strawberry)

. . . then it seems to me the best tack is to recommend that: players clearly define what their needs are (venue-wise / band-wise) and try as many combinations as they can in their locale until they find the right fit for them? instead of competing for what might be the "ultimate combination rig" that beats everything else! Chances are that's what they're gonna do anyway, except this way they won't feel like they're missing out on something because they read on TB about the latest next best thing.

I'm just sayin', you know? Seems like we go a little overboard sometimes with our technical knowledge, when we should probably be spending that time increasing our skills so we can really sound better. - jus' sayin'.

:hiding::ninja::hiding::cool:
 
#79
Doug Parent said:
weeeee hooooooo
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Since this issue comes up in multiple threads a day (I want a 115 cab to add low end to my 410), I don't see it at all as a 'beating the dead horse' thing.

I sure learn something in every one of these discussions, and the whole issue between driver size, specs, number of drivers, xmax, and cabinet tuning is not a simple one for most.

IMO there.
 

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