Same point I guess.... regarding the thread content.... the size of the driver has little to do with how he cab sounds. I guess 'shame on me' for using cone size or even general box type as a proxy for tone, but it does communicate the point I guess.
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Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation
- Thread starter Kwesi
- Start date
Same point I guess.... regarding the thread content.... the size of the driver has little to do with how he cab sounds. I guess 'shame on me' for using cone size or even general box type as a proxy for tone, but it does communicate the point I guess.
Not disagreeing with you necessarily, but you seem to be focussing o the psychological element that contributes to other people hearing a difference, but are avoiding the psychological elements that *prevent you* from hearing a difference.
I do not know what you mean by deep - this is a purely subjective, non-scientific term. I only know what I mean by deep. I don't know what you mean by punchy, growly, boomy or muddy either. I only know what those terms mean to me. This is a fact.
Another fact is that everyone's ears are different. Physically, my ears are different from yours, sound channels down my ear canal and bounces around differently then it does in yours, sound stimulates my ear hairs and my cochlea differently than yours, and my brain interprets those stimuli differently than yours does.
Quite true. However, I can only use use my ears to hear so to say how something might sound to someone else would be pointless. I can only give my perspective. The psychological elements I included only as possible reasons why this phenomenon seems to have perpetuated itself despite there being numerous examples of it not holding true. Again, this is only my perspective.
And you're right I could have used more scientific terms to describe what I heard (huge bump around 250Hz, total suck in the 3.3kHz area) but everyones idea of what that may sound like is different so in the end either would have been equally confusing. I was betting on the non-scientific lingo being more universally accessible
Depends on the type of wood the cabinet is made of...
(I kid, I kid.....)
I'd say it's more techniques than the construction material. My experience has been the type of wood makes no damn difference if it's braced so as to be non-resonant.
Sadly, if you go knock on most commercial cabinets you'll find that bracing is a foreign concept
I figured that would get picked up... didn't mean to hijack the thread... but it does surprise me that aspect about cabs isn't as flogged (to impasse and death) as it is about basses.
IMO, primarily because you can't see it and most have no idea what their cab is made from. Hence, the overfocus on driver size or 'port location'
[del]The effect of port location on tone is something that I do believe affects tone. I don't like the fact that a wall can alter my tone as drastically as it has so I'm sticking to non-ported and front-ported cabs.[/del]
TO BE RECONSIDERED
I hereby declare myself the only one allowed to go off-topic at will in this thread. Carry on
!
the wall will still affect the lows regardless of port location, except of course if you stuff it right up against the wall. move it out a little, and it works the same.
Topic number three... ready... go!I'll just point out that in a correctly designed cab, the 'sound' coming out of a port is purely omnidirectional... the 'wall' would have no more impact on a rear ported cab (for all practicle purposes) as a front ported cab. There are exceptions (cabs with big holes right behind the driver, or tunings which allow higher frequency and hence directional tone to come out of the port, but that is rare.
Andy from Acme speakers has a wonderful white paper on his site titled something like 'why does my side ported cab sound so great'
billfitzmaurice
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- Sep 15, 2004
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Like damping material?
It doesn't. If you hear a difference between a rear and front ported cab the difference is due to something other than the port location.
I'll just point out that in a correctly designed cab, the 'sound' coming out of a port is purely omnidirectional... the 'wall' would have no more impact on a rear ported cab (for all practicle purposes) as a front ported cab. There are exceptions (cabs with big holes right behind the driver, or tunings which allow higher frequency and hence directional tone to come out of the port, but that is rare.
Andy from Acme speakers has a wonderful white paper on his site titled something like 'why does my side ported cab sound so great'
Hehe, I could've sworn this was topic #143 but who's counting anyway
? I will say that I have tried significantly fewer rear ported cabs that the others and only once have I played one on a gig so I'm am willing to take some time to try more and reevaluate my findings at a later date. The previous post has been edited, please feel free to send me any and all rear ported cabs for analysis .EDIT: Seeing that I admittedly haven't tried many rear-ported cabs, it also could be that those that I did try just sucked? That would explain somethings...
And let's not forget to include the weather, temperature and humidity, the day of the week, what particular prescription and non-prescription drugs you're on , the blood pressure in your eardrums, then there's the constipation factor which can boost mids, and the fart factor which can give the illusion of a blown speaker cone!
This thread absolutely kills me! I'm outa here!
HAAAALLLLP!
This thread absolutely kills me! I'm outa here!
HAAAALLLLP!
This thread absolutely kills me! I'm outa here!
HAAAALLLLP!
Can't leave if you're dead now can you
?There are definitely as many rear ported cabinets that suck as front ported
That's what gets confusing and confounding in all these types of discussions. Play a cab that you don't like, and it happens to have a rear port and a 15, then 'rear ports and 15's suck'. Play a high end boutique bass with a neck through design and it kills versus your old bolt-on banger, and.... neck throughs have more sustain and fewer dead spots than bolt ons'. Play a micro amp that you don't like, and 'class D amps are a compromise',. etc., etc.
Sampling theory really does work!
And let's not forget to include the weather, temperature and humidity, the day of the week, what particular prescription and non-prescription drugs you're on , the blood pressure in your eardrums, then there's the constipation factor which can boost mids, and the fart factor which can give the illusion of a blown speaker cone!
This thread absolutely kills me! I'm outa here!
HAAAALLLLP!
Ignorance can be bliss... it is easier to just not think about any of this stuff and lumber along
Of course, I totally agree that if you suck, none of this matters, and if you are totally smoking, most everything sounds good. However, this is the amps forum, so minutia is fair game!!!!
As a totally confused noobe who still can't figure out what he wants to buy as his first bass rig... I thought it interesting that within the audiophile community there are (or at least used to be) similar arguments when talking about the reproduction of bass frequencies on a stereo system. Some argued that you needed big woofers to be able to accurately reproduce very low bass frequencies whereas others argued that you needed smaller drivers to prevent the reproduction sounding 'mushy'. Their thoughts seemed to be that smaller drivers are able to react more quickly (less moving mass) therefore their sound reproduction was more accurate whereas larger woofers (more moving mass) were too slow to be considered an accurate reproduction of the sound and that is why they sounded 'mushy'.
Kinda sounds like the 'punchy' vs. 'deeper' argument... just phrased differently.
Kinda sounds like the 'punchy' vs. 'deeper' argument... just phrased differently.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Another thing that we bass players need to understand is the relationship between bass cabinets and the environment in which they are used; the way a bass cabinet sounds depends upon the relative positions of the listener and the cabinet in the listening environment. Bass cabs seldom sound the same at our place on stage as they do elsewhere in the venue.
Big +1. KJung continues to make sense
There's no horse being beat here. I asked for opinions on the validity of speaker size/tone relationship not for people to tell me which they think is better. Frankly, I couldn't careless about what other people like at this point. I've had all kinds of people telling me what amps/cabs are good or bad and more often than not I end up disagreeing with them. This is more a reminder to those who've forgotten what this thread is and isn't about. It is about your personal observations. It isn't about the greatest amp/cab you've ever played on. Thanks.
Stay in school
since i appear to be be a what what?
and find my rants often misunderstood. i must say im not a "meth" head and never will be, but admit have a oddball way of saying things and will ramble on for sure. I didn't mean to go on about what i like the most or what is the best in my opinion. Maybe what i should have said was. as far as the relation to speaker size and tone. A 10" between a 15" in a small cabinet is little or no difference. they sound the same for the most part. Most likely 80% of all brand names use the same or similar speaker, which is most likely a eminence driver. the difference between a 10" 12" and 15" is little to none because the voice coil and magnets are practically the same in all modern high power speakers. just the basket and cone are bigger and smaller. So its obvious that a larger cone will change the sound slightly but not by much. In a blind test nobody would tell the difference. That is based on most modern cabinets which is why you yourself had noticed that in the end they all pretty much sound the same. some will be slightly more clear than others, but otherwise have the same sound because the of the limitations set by the basic cabinet design and driver design.
The reason i named off a few specific cabinets and speakers is their design is quite a bit different. So within those designs the sound difference between a 10" 12" 15" and 18" is huge. The voice coil and magnet and cone are all much different than any modern high powered speaker. Not only are the drivers different but the internal baffles of the cabinet are different as well.
Unfortunately they follow a older approach to high SPL sound design. Which is very large air space and multible drivers to be able to dissipate high power. 10" and 12" are guitar only and will distort with bass. 15" and 18" are for bass 15" is very natural and full range with no peaks, 18" is deep with less highend
JBL D140, JBL D140f , JBL D130 are well over 40 years old but still have a asking price of 300$ or more. That is for a used speaker which is over 40 years old. So either hundreds of people are just crazy and stupid, what what meth heads.:scowl: Or they just know that they are something special and willing to pay the price.
They do not make these speakers any more. their is no industry "hype" selling them. but anyday on ebay they still sell for 300$ a piece.as far as my rant and answer to your question a JBL D140 15" tone wise is very deep punchy and bright. No characteristic is louder than the other, they are well balanced .The Alnico magnet reacts much faster to your playing and makes you feel "connected" to your amp. the power handling is much lower but has a more SPL and efficiency than any ceramic large gap voice coil. A small under powered amp will easily push these over a drummer no problem. A quad of 15"s in two matching Sunn200s cabinets will be louder and clearer in a mix than one boomy 8X10 fridge.
A 10", 12" , 15" ceramic modern eminence driver all sound the same. 10" and 12" are somewhat brighter with a unnatural "boomy" low end. A 15" eminence speaker is " Boomy" and slow with a muffled high end. The mid range is slightly more natural but the boomy low end and lack of highs make you want to switch to a 10". They drink up power and need a min of 170watts or more to be heard over a soft drummer and atleast 250watts or more to be heard over a loud drummer. they can handle tons of power and in general sound fine, with a very high power amp with a graphic EQ to boost or cut boomy or weak areas
so am i trying to tell you what is better, no. but after you spend a few thousand dollars on 9 different cabs to find the same sound. Im telling you what will sound different in my experience.....take it for what its worth.
Sun 200s cabinet 2x15" JBL D140F
Acoustic 301 1 x 18" 3ohm Cerwin Vega
single cab for small venues, two matching cabs for large venues
200 watts or less is all that is needed
The Cerwin Vega driver is very fast for a 18" speaker, can be considered boomy but much less and unnatural than 8X10 ampeg
if more high end is needed the matching 370 acoustic head is recommended. The bright switch is designed specifically for the 301 bin. on any other cab the bright switch is beyond way to bright....on a matching 301 bin it will make total sense and in a blind test you would have no idea you were using a 18" speaker.
Technically there is no such thing as a acoustic "cab" or "cabinet" they are called W Bins. Because of the large internal baffle are shaped similar to a "W". Any bass driver or sub bass driver in a pro PA system is considered a "Bin" or to some a "Sub"
or a "Bass Bin".
what what in the butt....say what in the butt, your going to do what in my butt...what what in the butt.
Check link Invalid Link Removed
if your still confused "acoustic" as in not the guitar but
Acoustic Control Corporation as in the now out of buisness sound company. Not to be confused even more with the newer garbage amps being sold under the name. using the same typical modern 2 4 and 8x 10" ceramic speaker cabinets
end of rant much to long....don't care im bored
From what I've gathered there are lots of reasons for the "speaker size tone myth."
First the fact that a larger driver is usually in a larger box.
More low end (which also translates to a diminished high-end, comparitively speaking)
Next, larger cones can displace more air. More power handling, sensitivity, displacement in the larger cones... more sound.
Then you have the whole "dispersion" factor. Smaller cones beam at higher frequencies, thus sounding like they have more top end off-axis. Because off-axis, they do.
I also remember reading on alex claber's website (barefacedbass) there is another factor in early construction of bass cabs, where larger cones didn't have powerful enough motors, so this contributed to a muddy sound. So in effect, those 15s would have more "low end."
Please any expert correct anything I said wrong, or elaborate...
First the fact that a larger driver is usually in a larger box.
More low end (which also translates to a diminished high-end, comparitively speaking)
Next, larger cones can displace more air. More power handling, sensitivity, displacement in the larger cones... more sound.
Then you have the whole "dispersion" factor. Smaller cones beam at higher frequencies, thus sounding like they have more top end off-axis. Because off-axis, they do.
I also remember reading on alex claber's website (barefacedbass) there is another factor in early construction of bass cabs, where larger cones didn't have powerful enough motors, so this contributed to a muddy sound. So in effect, those 15s would have more "low end."
Please any expert correct anything I said wrong, or elaborate...
I will say this. In my experience, more material vibrating generally means a richer, darker, warmer sound. Granted everything is vibrating in the right way. That's part of why 8x10s sound so rich I think. It has as much to do with the speakers as the fact that the cabinet itself is absolutely huge. Also, I think part of the reason many prefer 4x10 over 1x15 is because there is literally 25 more inches worth of stuff vibrating.
My theory, though possibly wrong and definitely undereducated, is that more things resonating will make a "better" sound
My theory, though possibly wrong and definitely undereducated, is that more things resonating will make a "better" sound
