Spector Club - Part 8

[rockstarbassist]

The Tonepump is boost/cut:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=683818

Did you read the thread? That's not how it always was...
That's a new feature. The originals were all boost-only.

 

[NKUSigEp]

Since we're on pre-amps (and I haven't posted in part 8 yet ) I want to ask something of you EMG experts and our Aguilar guy NKUSigEp.

I have an NS 4 string with a EMG PJ setup and a 6 string with EMG TW's.
They both have the OBP-1 pre in them, however, the OPB-1 in the 4 string/PJ is the original Spector issue. The one in the 6 string/TW's was the comercially available after-market version (but not the cube shaped one, it's the same size/shape as Spector's OBP-1).

These two Spector basses sound radically different with these supposed identical pre's.
The 4 string/PJ is much hotter (I have the pups somewhat lowered on this with the 6 string/TW's way up to compensate for the volume difference) and more midrange "bitey" that the 6 string.
The 6's output is less (if pickup height and volumes/tones are equal), but the tone is much more round with a fuller bottom (both pups in dual coil mode as they are basically un-usable in single coil mode due to severe volume drop).

Given the two probably different runs of the same pre vs. the PJ's / TW's differences, what's the theory for the big difference in output and tone? I could maybe understand the tone difference, but I would think the dual coil TW's would be as hot, if not hotter, than the PJ's.

It's the pickup arrangement and placement. The TW's are radically different than the PJ's and also they are in slightly different areas on the bass than the PJ pickups are. The TW's were as you described on the cherry red Euro 5LX I had, but compared to one loaded with the same tonepump pre and the DC's, the DC's were much hotter and brighter. So I can only assume the same with an OBP preamp.

I know Aguilar changed the design a while back to make it a little smaller but supposedly it was still the same circuit.

 

[NKUSigEp]

The Tonepump is boost/cut:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=683818

I don't think that's correct. The reason I say that is if I roll the treble all the way back, it seems like it's more or less a flat signal. NOT the -12dB cut that says it is which would be a pretty muffled sound. And if I roll the bass all the back, it seems pretty close to what I would expect a "flat" signal to be as well. And when I boost both, there's a noticeably different sound.

So either you've been given incorrect information, or there are at least two different versions of the Tonepump...both of which make little to no sense to me.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Did you read the thread? That's not how it always was...
That's a new feature. The originals were all boost-only.

No Sir. Incorrect.
It was missinformation from the start.
PJ has admited to this and I had some corrospondence with the original guy who was involved with the manufacturer and brought us the info.
This is the thread you need to read.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670840

Even before Spector knew the correct info they were saying "flat" was both controls "slightly boosted".

 

[PhatBasstard]

It's the pickup arrangement and placement. The TW's are radically different than the PJ's and also they are in slightly different areas on the bass than the PJ pickups are. The TW's were as you described on the cherry red Euro 5LX I had, but compared to one loaded with the same tonepump pre and the DC's, the DC's were much hotter and brighter. So I can only assume the same with an OBP preamp.

I know Aguilar changed the design a while back to make it a little smaller but supposedly it was still the same circuit.

Yeah,
Had a feeling the DC's were what I should have gone with,
but I got a screaming deal on these practically new TW's pre wired with the mini toggles (I hate push/pulls) so I took a shot. Oh well.

 

[NKUSigEp]

No Sir. Incorrect.
It was missinformation from the start.
PJ has admited to this and I had some corrospondence with the original guy who was involved with the manufacturer and brought us the info.
This is the thread you need to read.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670840

Even before Spector knew the correct info they were saying "flat" was both controls "slightly boosted".

I didn't read through all of that thread but it doesn't explain why having both bass and treble completely rolled off appears to give a flat signal response. It is clear and defined, not at all like it would be having a -12dB cut as is suggested by this "new" information. And then -4dB for the bass isn't a far stretch but I'm just not hearing it (or feeling it). So I'm sticking by the assertion that MY Euro 4LX Tonepump is boost only. I'm not saying it's not the case for newer Euros...just saying.

PS - I remember this exact phenomena occuring with all 3 Rebop 5's I've had, as well as the Euro 5LX and the Euro 5LX-EX. The Rebops were a little older but the Euro 5LX-EX was about 3 years old and the 5LX was just a few months old.

 

[NKUSigEp]

The hot aspect can be cranked down with the internal trim pot.

I had to crack Brad Savage's new hybrid Wimbish-Hill lefty open on the stage during his sound check at NAMM because it was WAY, WAY too hot. I turned the trim pot down to about 50-60% and that bass suddenly sounded so sweet...

Alright, I opened it up and all I see is a totally sealed black box with some wires coming out of it. No trim pot whatsoever anywhere. Any ideas?

 

[PhatBasstard]

Alright, I opened it up and all I see is a totally sealed black box with some wires coming out of it. No trim pot whatsoever anywhere. Any ideas?

This is the only thing that has changed with the Tone Pumps:
Early ones had no trim pot.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I didn't read through all of that thread but it doesn't explain why having both bass and treble completely rolled off appears to give a flat signal response. It is clear and defined, not at all like it would be having a -12dB cut as is suggested by this "new" information. And then -4dB for the bass isn't a far stretch but I'm just not hearing it (or feeling it). So I'm sticking by the assertion that MY Euro 4LX Tonepump is boost only. I'm not saying it's not the case for newer Euros...just saying.

PS - I remember this exact phenomena occuring with all 3 Rebop 5's I've had, as well as the Euro 5LX and the Euro 5LX-EX. The Rebops were a little older but the Euro 5LX-EX was about 3 years old and the 5LX was just a few months old.

It's your ears apparently.
I've had Spectors with Tone Pumps and a Jr. that sounded weak with both treble and bass rolled back (what I thought was flat at the time) compared to my similar Spectors with either EMG or Haz-Labs pre's, same EMG pups.
And this is with old Tone Pumps. I've never had a newer trim pot version.

This new info on how the Tone Pump had always been made all the sense in the world, as the only way my Tone Pumps could compete with my (center detented) flat set EMG or Haz-Lab Spector tone was to roll up both controls somewhat.

PJ and Stuart didn't just take this guy's word. They contacted the manufacturer after it came to light. It's the same circuit. The only change was the addition of a trim pot. Either way, I decided I liked the Aguilar better.

 

[bobunit]

Updated 3-19-2011, 2:00 PM MST

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[NKUSigEp]

It's your ears apparently.
I've had Spectors with Tone Pumps and a Jr. that sounded weak with both treble and bass rolled back (what I thought was flat at the time) compared to my similar Spectors with either EMG or Haz-Labs pre's, same EMG pups.
And this is with old Tone Pumps. I've never had a newer trim pot version.

This new info on how the Tone Pump had always been made all the sense in the world, as the only way my Tone Pumps could compete with my (center detented) flat set EMG or Haz-Lab Spector tone was to roll up both controls somewhat.

PJ and Stuart didn't just take this guy's word. They contacted the manufacturer after it came to light. It's the same circuit. The only change was the addition of a trim pot. Either way, I decided I liked the Aguilar better.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't have the equipment to prove you wrong so I guess I'll never find out for sure. If anyone's interested in a Tonepump pre, I'll be posting one up for sale in the next couple of days. Like I've said before, I don't hate it but the lack of a blend as opposed to the two volumes is the deal-breaker for me.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Every Euro I touched w/ the Tone Pump preamp was boost only. It had no center detent to indicate "flat". It just had (like the Volume controls) 0-100%. This is as current as of 2 months ago when G.C. had a used Euro LX w/ a spalted maple top on the wall that I used to test out some amps.

Are you saying that 50% boost is "flat" on the Tone Pump pres...? And if so, how do you "know" you're actually at 50%?

 

[NKUSigEp]

Every Euro I touched w/ the Tone Pump preamp was boost only. It had no center detent to indicate "flat". It just had (like the Volume controls) 0-100%. This is as current as of 2 months ago when G.C. had a used Euro LX w/ a spalted maple top on the wall that I used to test out some amps.

Are you saying that 50% boost is "flat" on the Tone Pump pres...? And if so, how do you "know" you're actually at 50%?

No, what they're trying to say is that the treble is a +14dB boost/-12dB cut and that the bass is a -4dB cut/+14dB boost, with no detent. So somewhere around halfway is flat for treble, and somewhere around god knows where between halfway and all the way off (no detent) is flat for bass. A very intelligent design if you ask this lady:

 

[rockstarbassist]

:freak:

That makes even less sense. No wonder nobody can figure it out just picking it up off the wall. LOL

 

[NS2A]

Every Euro I touched w/ the Tone Pump preamp was boost only. It had no center detent to indicate "flat". It just had (like the Volume controls) 0-100%. This is as current as of 2 months ago when G.C. had a used Euro LX w/ a spalted maple top on the wall that I used to test out some amps.

Are you saying that 50% boost is "flat" on the Tone Pump pres...? And if so, how do you "know" you're actually at 50%?

The center detent has nothing to do with it. They can calibrate it anyway they want it. Like many amps, you set everything at "noon" or "flat" and its scooped.

From the original thread:

Basic gain +12dB

Controls:
Bass: +14dB/-4dB @55Hz
Treble: +14dB/-12dB @6.5kHz

Meaning that to run the tonepump flat, you have to open the bass pot just shy of 1/4 of the way, and the treble just shy of 1/2 way.

 

[rockstarbassist]

The center detent has nothing to do with it. They can calibrate it anyway they want it. Like many amps, you set everything at "noon" or "flat" and its scooped.

From the original thread:

Most preamps are not that way. I've never had one not that way. The detent is there for a reason to give you guidance for how much more or less of B/M/T you're getting.

I've not had a Baxandall style 10/2/10 onboard preamp.

 

[NS2A]

Most preamps are not that way. I've never had one not that way. The detent is there for a reason to give you guidance for how much more or less of B/M/T you're getting.

I've not had a Baxandall style 10/2/10 onboard preamp.

Sure, and that makes sense.

I remember when they went to the Tonepump and was checking the bass out. The owner of the store told me the whole point of no detent was to use your ears to find the best tone.

Honestly, I can't believe there's so much disagreement about this since Michalik, the maker of the Tonepump, says it's boost/cut and Spector now does also:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[rockstarbassist]

It's not so much "disagreement" as it is utter confusion and considering Spector has always (AFAIK) had center-detents on their active onboard circuits, why the T.P. does not, especially if it's "cut until this point then boost until that point" which is just again, :freak: all the way around LOL.
I understand the concept, I just have never seen that mentioned ever. And for Spector players who have (like me) come to expect that, I'd like to know where the "zero" point is. Like Fenfer players who know where "home" is w/ their passive Tone control, I know where "home" is on just about any Spector w/ an active circuit- except that one.

 

[NKUSigEp]

The center detent has nothing to do with it. They can calibrate it anyway they want it. Like many amps, you set everything at "noon" or "flat" and its scooped.

From the original thread:

As rockstarbassist mentioned, the detent is a reference point and has everything to do with it. Calibrate it how you want, I need to have a better approximation of where my controls are so I don't have to sit there and mess with them and rely on my ears (which appear to be flawed). Most of us will have lost half our hearing by age 30 anyways.

Many amps nowadays are relatively flat at high noon, but even using that logic, this terrible design still makes no sense because if you set the bass and treble at noon, the bass is boosted however much that turns out to be, and the treble is HOPEFULLY flat (we'll never know for sure).

This is a horrible design for recording because we all know minor changes can make a big difference in the final product - costing us TIME (and time = money). It's a horrible design for live use because it has two volumes and if you need to cut volume on stage, you've got turn down both pickups - and if you don't use both pickups full-on, then you'll probably have to guess about where both volumes should be on the fly. A huge inconvenience when you think that there are preamps out there that take this stupid guesswork out of the equation by having a volume/blend combination and detented pots.

/rant.

 

[rockstarbassist]

^^^

amen

Unless you tape down your B/T tone controls, or mark up your bass where the "sweet spots" are/is, you're always playing the guessing game. No detent = no sense, esp since again, never seen an active Spector w/out it.