Double Bass Squeaking with the bow?

[Calvin Marks]

When I use my lighter bow (128g) and play the Bach cello suite prelude in thumb position I notice that certain notes really squeak. I think it is a technique issue when I’m using a lighter bow since when I use my 150g bow there are no squeaks. Any ideas on if it may be the rosin, bow hair, or simply technique?

thx

 

[LouisF]

Do you use the same rosin with both bows? I use a stickier rosin with the Arcus (118gr; Petz Premium) than I do with the other two bows (126 gr and 134) (Weidof or Carlson's). Seems to help.

 

[Calvin Marks]

Same stuff with both. Since I no longer play professionally my technique has taken a nosedive. Maybe it needs a rehair - it has been a solid 3 years and the hair isn’t grabbing very well. The other bows hair is quite fresh.

The crummy thing is that in Toronto it seems like “white” hair isn’t really that great for a bass bow - not coarse enough, and the black hair isn’t the best quality.

 

[Mikich]

Try a “salt and pepper” mix of the two

 

[eerbrev]

I'm a german bow player, so I understand that my experience isn't universal, but this sounds like a weight and placement issue. Not enough weight, and not in the right place. You're never going to get the same volume with a lighter bow, but it should be a relatively subtle difference unless you're going to like, a period bow that mimics light, pointed gamba bows. Respectfully, you may be overcompensating your weight to attempt to get the lighter sound you're hearing in your head. start from a good fundamental sound, reacquaint yourself with the piece with that in mind, and then go purposefully from there.

Re: rosin, rehairs - I really strongly believe that there is no mechanical substitute for technique. I *barely* rosin my bow, maybe once every week? two weeks? And I'd think that if you can't get good bass hair from Ludi Pollack in Toronto I don't know where in Canada you're going to get it. I think time fussing with rosin is better spent fussing with technique instead. In this case, and I don't want to overstep or seem like I'm talking down to someone who has professional experience, but going back to the basics of sound production might serve you really well. All three of the teachers I was most influenced by were really big on going back to fundamental principles when you were unhappy with an element of your playing, and it has really paid dividends for me.

 

[David Potts]

I am not tall and when I get lazy (more often these days?) the first thing to suffer is bow placement. The bow creeps up towards the fingerboard. This is BAD news on the G string, when the bow should be moving faster anyway (to support the faster string vibrations). eebrev is correct to advise "back to basics". Somewhere along the line I picked up the idea that for a good resonant sound the RATIO of bow distance from the bridge to vibrating string length should be somewhere between 1 : 7 and 1 : 10, ie 4 - 6" from the bridge in Half Position, about 2 - 3" in basic Thumb Position, etc. Of course bow speed and weight are the other variables to worry about. BUT, when I look at videos of the Berlin Philharmonic bass section they seem to be breaking all the "rules" by often being over their often-short fingerboards.

I would go further to suggest that bow hair tension and the basic strength of the stick (regardless of its weight) are also fairly critical. How easy is it to touch three strings at once if you weigh the stick down to the middle of the tensioned bow hair when about 6" from the bridge? That is the most weight I will use and is usually my starting point when tensioning the bow BUT I am a French bow user. From there I tighten or loosen the hair in 1/4 turn steps until I get the crisp note starts and tone that I want. A weak stick will never satisfy you IMO. Tension is even more critical if the stick is very stiff. The experiment should be the same for German bow. For rosin I use not a lot of Nymans to keep my tone honest (not treacly Pops), also because it wipes off easily.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Long slow tones played 1.5-2.0” from the bridge will tame the toughest strings, in my experience.
The skating squeaking screeching bow will disappear into history.

Metronome at quarter note=40, whole note scales on all 4 strings in thumb position, forte bow 1.5-2.0” from the bridge.

Other than having great overall arco fitness, over time this exercise is the solution to bow strings like Spiros and Dominants effectively. If playing BeCantos, good results will be faster.

Ten minutes a day. Be patient and results will come.

 

[Calvin Marks]

Thanks everyone. I diagnosed the issue was that there wasn’t enough weight from the bow into the string. I don’t mean pressing but the natural weight from my arm wasn’t going into my index finger and into the bow - it was just skating across the G string.

 

[Calvin Marks]

Thanks!

I'm a german bow player, so I understand that my experience isn't universal, but this sounds like a weight and placement issue. Not enough weight, and not in the right place. You're never going to get the same volume with a lighter bow, but it should be a relatively subtle difference unless you're going to like, a period bow that mimics light, pointed gamba bows. Respectfully, you may be overcompensating your weight to attempt to get the lighter sound you're hearing in your head. start from a good fundamental sound, reacquaint yourself with the piece with that in mind, and then go purposefully from there.

Re: rosin, rehairs - I really strongly believe that there is no mechanical substitute for technique. I *barely* rosin my bow, maybe once every week? two weeks? And I'd think that if you can't get good bass hair from Ludi Pollack in Toronto I don't know where in Canada you're going to get it. I think time fussing with rosin is better spent fussing with technique instead. In this case, and I don't want to overstep or seem like I'm talking down to someone who has professional experience, but going back to the basics of sound production might serve you really well. All three of the teachers I was most influenced by were really big on going back to fundamental principles when you were unhappy with an element of your playing, and it has really paid dividends for me.

Thanks! Yes, no longer playing professionally - just for fun. Technique took a nose dive after years away from the instrument and doing other things to make money! I agree with your above points. Thank you.

 

[LouisF]

My technique nose dives if I take the weekend off!

The issue of energy direction in bowing is fascinating. Because of some arthritis issues I've been experimenting with Michael Wolfe's 2nd finger technique on the German bow (Grundlagen der Kontrabass-Technik / Principles of Double Bass Technique, by Wolf, Michael Barry). Very interesting how the tone quality of the bow changes from such a small adjustment.

 

[damonsmith]

Study the squeak. Learn to reproduce it and manipulate it. Know your enemy. Once you understand the sound, it is very simple to not do it.

 

[garrett2]

My technique nose dives if I take the weekend off!

The issue of energy direction in bowing is fascinating. Because of some arthritis issues I've been experimenting with Michael Wolfe's 2nd finger technique on the German bow (Grundlagen der Kontrabass-Technik / Principles of Double Bass Technique, by Wolf, Michael Barry). Very interesting how the tone quality of the bow changes from such a small adjustment.

Thanks for mentioning this book. I got it a few days ago and it is fascinating.

 

[LouisF]

It's a read best done in small bites and constant reviewing.... but very helpful I found.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Not adding anything to the conversation, just wanted to drop in and say that I’m picking up a bow for the first time in 40 years, and I really appreciate how the more experienced bassists are helping out in threads like this.

 

[damonsmith]

Try a “salt and pepper” mix of the two

This has never worked for anyone I know - most often, one of the colors will be a different strength than the other and stretch out faster creating a rough, nasty uneven hair. This happens in the best of times. It may work with very fine, tested sets of hair from a high end bow maker. However, you 100% going to get one coming loose before the other in a situation where they two are KNOWN to be different qualities.
DO NOT just randomly get a salt & pepper rehair from anyone unless they are known to great salt and pepper rehairs and even then - just get black hair. It is stronger, gripper and lasts longer.