Squier/Fender truss rods revisited

[lovethegrowl]

Last May I had some work done on a 5 string Squier that I had converted to a six string with a Wammi bar. My Nordstrands' tech informed me that he didn't quite like the quality of Squier, & frankly all Fender truss rods. He says 80% of all Fender products he sees have s-shaped twist that limits the action height.

Of course Fender fans wrote in & called him a charlatan & told me not to trust him.

Well now the Squier is back on his bench for a fret dressing. And now at 3am I just noticed his email telling me that my truss rod is "maxed" because of the extra string.

This obviously concerns me. At one point this was to be a dream bass. Its really a freaking dog. I have an option I am not too enthusiastic about.

-Turn it back into a 5 string. At least it will lend it self to "slap" technique with the 19mm spacing.

-Take off the Wammi bar (sell it?) & take off the good pickups, put the old ceramic ones back turn it into a high action 'practice only' bass.

- that leaves me with out a good 6 string bass that has single coil pickups. I originally put those Carvins in my 6 string Ibanez cavities. It didn't growl like a Jazz bass at all. Later I found out those damn Ibby active preamps veil the sound. So I put the Soap bar pickups back & use it with TI Jazz Rounds. I never planned that one. My band mates like those strings a lot. Most musicians do! I don't know why. I have mixed feelings. The TIs have to be EQed to death to sound natural.

-theoretically the Ibby can be turned into my dream 6 string jazz bass. The TIs would have to come off. No where to put them. A Gerald Veasly bass with a 14mm spacing seems ideal for those strings, but too expensive.

Is replacing the old Squier DJAV truss rod with a better one impossible?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

No, it's not impossible. A Fender/Squier neck can be rebuilt with a better, stronger truss rod. I've done it quite a few times in the past. But the overall labor cost will be about the same as making up a new custom neck. If it's a top-load truss rod, it will need a new fingerboard and fretwork. A skunk stripe rear-load truss rod can also be upgraded, without harming the fingerboard, but it's a lot of work. I've done a bunch of them. I don't do that kind of repair work myself any more. Either way, the cost would be $400-$500.

If you like the bass overall, everything except the neck stability issue, then I recommend that you have a custom neck made for it. It would be around the same price range, and you can adjust other dimensions or features to your preference.

 

[Bobster]

What does he mean by "maxxed"? Is the rod out of adjustment room? It's a very common procedure, even with Fenders to add extra washers to the truss rod to increase the adjustment range. Fender even sells washers directly.

Has he suggested this option to you?

Here is a Dan Erlewine article about just this: Invalid Link Removed

Best of luck,

Bob

 

[Hopkins]

If the rod is maxed out, that is a neck problem not a truss rod problem. Try a lighter gauge/lower tension string. If that doesn't work, you could remove the neck, pull the frets, build a jig to force the neck into a slight relief and re level the fret board so the neck is in a back bow with no string tension.

You have modded the hell out of that bass, and you are not happy with it. At this point you could probably fix it, but nothing would make you happy with it. Your best bet is to sell it and cut your losses, and put that money towards a 6 string that you can be happy with.

 

[lovethegrowl]

If the rod is maxed out, that is a neck problem not a truss rod problem. Try a lighter gauge/lower tension string. If that doesn't work, you could remove the neck, pull the frets, build a jig to force the neck into a slight relief and re level the fret board so the neck is in a back bow with no string tension.

You have modded the hell out of that bass, and you are not happy with it. At this point you could probably fix it, but nothing would make you happy with it. Your best bet is to sell it and cut your losses, and put that money towards a 6 string that you can be happy with.

Please do keep in mind that I am not the one who did the luthier work. A local luthier carelessly & recklessly did the original mods, & now this bass is on Mo's bench to be redone.

Remember my thread last year, "Bad Luthier?" in which a number of amateur luthiers (defending their fraternity) posted that the local luthier was entirely right? That thread got contentious to the point it was pulled.

I suspect that Mo would have originally brought to my attention the limitations of the instrument before working in it, & I would not have gone ahead with some of this stuff. Are you still interested in buying it?

Your suggestion us viable. I could get a flatter radius, maybe 47" like a Warwick!

 

[Hopkins]

Please do keep in mind that I am not the one who did the luthier work. A local luthier carelessly & recklessly did the original mods, & now this bass is on Mo's bench to be redone.

Remember my thread last year, "Bad Luthier?" in which a number of amateur luthiers (defending their fraternity) posted that the local luthier was entirely right? That thread got contentious to the point it was pulled.

I suspect that Mo would have originally brought to my attention the limitations of the instrument before working in it, & I would not have gone ahead with some of this stuff. Are you still interested in buying it?

Your suggestion us viable. I could get a flatter radius, maybe 47" like a Warwick!

LOL no, that was more of a joke than anything. I don't need anything more than a 5 string.

I don't remember that thread, but I am pretty quick to call out a tech that doesn't know what he is doing. I will never "defend the fraternity" as you say if a guy is truly doing bad work. Bad techs give us all a bad name.

 

[OldDirtyBassist]

I'm not 100% sure how truss rods work. Do they loosen as time goes on? If so, cant' they put a lock on it?

 

[lovethegrowl]

Reshaping the neck, flattening the radius, & adding washers looks good.

 

[lovethegrowl]

LOL no, that was more of a joke than anything. I don't need anything more than a 5 string.

I don't remember that thread, but I am pretty quick to call out a tech that doesn't know what he is doing. I will never "defend the fraternity" as you say if a guy is truly doing bad work. Bad techs give us all a bad name.

In that thread I was all out attacked by TB trolls. You & Jensby were fairly neutral. 2 TB users, Frankenbass & Narud defended me. It was Narud who suggested Mo as a tech.

 

[lovethegrowl]

I'm not 100% sure how truss rods work. Do they loosen as time goes on? If so, cant' they put a lock on it?

I am not sure, but I think my tech was implying that one more twist of the allen wrench & snap. Of course I guess as time goes by the neck continues to warp, so you need to keep tightening the rod.

The tech I see continually does warn that Squier/Fender necks aren't that good. (That seems to rile up TB Fender fans.) I was wary of what he had to say, but given that the action was set medium high & I get NOTHING but fret buzzes, he's turned me into a believer.

That Squier neck is thick, it's 2" at the nut & made to accommodate a 19 mm spacing between 5 strings (2 15/16" B to C strings center to center) there is no reason why I should encounter this problem adding a damn 30 gauge C string.

 

[lovethegrowl]

While on the subject I took my 30" SX fretless to my tech, & I asked him why I couldn't get the action set a little lower without the strings rattling against the neck board. He looked at it & noticed how the surface of the neck board raised up at about the 10th fret. He said that the neck board needs to be sanded out.

He elaborated, "what do you expect for a hundred bucks?" ($125 including shipping). But he then volunteered that he frequently encounters pricey MIA Fender fretless basses with the same problem.

 

[lovethegrowl]

No, it's not impossible. A Fender/Squier neck can be rebuilt with a better, stronger truss rod. I've done it quite a few times in the past. But the overall labor cost will be about the same as making up a new custom neck. If it's a top-load truss rod, it will need a new fingerboard and fretwork. A skunk stripe rear-load truss rod can also be upgraded, without harming the fingerboard, but it's a lot of work. I've done a bunch of them. I don't do that kind of repair work myself any more. Either way, the cost would be $400-$500.

If you like the bass overall, everything except the neck stability issue, then I recommend that you have a custom neck made for it. It would be around the same price range, and you can adjust other dimensions or features to your preference.

Frankly I am starting to hate it! Ironic! In another thread I complained about the sound absorptive properties if the basswood body. So I don't really like it. I am trying to somehow recover my losses. If the body was ash, Hell I'd have a maple neck made from scratch. Then I'd have a 6 string equivalent to my Marcus Miller bass. There is nothing like ash & maple. Pitch discrimination is so good with that bass I don't need to use a tuner. Gimme a g & its tuned in seconds.

The only good quality of that Squire DJAV bass is it's appearance. I seriously should turn this onto a practice bass & get an ash & maple 6 string from SX for about $ 270 or so. I am curious about the SX truss rods made for 6 stringers. Who says they will hold up? Betcha my tech will advise against that too.

 

[Hopkins]

The tech I see continually does warn that Squier/Fender necks aren't that good. (That seems to rile up TB Fender fans.)

It's because it simply isn't true. As mass produced as Fender/Squier is, a few bad boards are going to get turned into necks, and there are going to be a few that have problems that are beyond what the truss rod can fix, that doesn't mean that there is any inherent flaw in the design. If there was truly a flaw in the design of a Fender style rod, then there wouldn't be so many old Fenders that still function perfectly. It is true that there are stronger design, if you want to see a truly flawed design look at a Pedulla truss rod.

I have adjusted hundreds of Fender and Squire rods, I have never broke or stripped one out. I have seen a few maxed out rods, but again that is a neck problem, not truss rod problem, some of these were fixable with a washer, some were not. I have seen twisted necks, ski jumps, and back bowed necks, but none of these problems are caused by truss rod design. These problems would be present with a Fender rod or a modern double action rod.

 

[maurilio]

Everything can be fix!!! but at what cost? is it worth it?

Bruce had it right!

BTW, of course washer can help a maxed TR, but it will not make that neck straight. For a medium/mid low action I can probably save it with a fret dress, but for a straight neck with low action it will need a FB re-true and refret…

I have NEVER said that all squier and fender have bad necks or that the TR is the cause of a twisted neck, but for all the basses I get on my bench, the one with most problems have been fender and squier (and I talking even for brand new one)

lovethegrowl, I think you are chasing your own tail here! it seems to me that there is nothing really that you like about this bass:

radius, wood resonance (sound), string spacing, electronics….

As it is been suggested, I would take in consideration looking for a bass with the specs you actually want (or at least as close as possible) and do few tweaks to "perfect" it…

 

[Robus]

What is a "practice bass?" Why would you want to practice with a crappy instrument?

 

[lovethegrowl]

What is a "practice bass?" Why would you want to practice with a crappy instrument?

Duh!...Why would someone want to hit themselves on the top of the head with a hammer because it feels good when it stops?

But seriously......I am talking about making the action high & spending maybe 5-15 minutes (@ the most) per day practicing scales & difficult passages. For finger strength.

Now that I think about it. Sell it for what I can get. Better option!

 

[lovethegrowl]

Everything can be fix!!! but at what cost? is it worth it?

Bruce had it right!

BTW, of course washer can help a maxed TR, but it will not make that neck straight. For a medium/mid low action I can probably save it with a fret dress, but for a straight neck with low action it will need a FB re-true and refret…

I have NEVER said that all squier and fender have bad necks or that the TR is the cause of a twisted neck, but for all the basses I get on my bench, the one with most problems have been fender and squier (and I talking even for brand new one)

That's right, you never said they are ALL bad! But you did write in my original thread, Sunday May 18 or 19, 2014 (the day after you came to P&H's & dropped off my basses) that: Fender truss rods aren't of the best quality, & about 8 out of 10 Fender products you work on have S-shaped neck twists that limit the action to medium low at best.


Furthermore, if ANY new pricey MIA fretless Fenders are sold in the condition of my SX & have to be reshaped, that's a disgrace.

 

[lovethegrowl]

lovethegrowl, I think you are chasing your own tail here! it seems to me that there is nothing really that you like about this bass:

radius, wood resonance (sound), string spacing, electronics….
…

Let's take these one by one.

Radius: a 12" radius for such a wide neck is ergonomically stupid, yet it is the industry norm! Ibanez, everyone has 12" for their 6 strings, except for pricey custom boutique makers.

Wood resonance: I really can't evaluate basswood until those active electronics are bypassed! Those are the leanest sounding active electronics EVER..., and manufacturing/installing those without a passive bypass switch should be illegal! The verdict on basswood isn't really in yet.

Electronics: Same deal. Until I go passive I will never really know how those Carvin pickups sound. Carvin pickups are much maligned on TB, but if you want a single coil pickup for a narrow spaced 6 string, then your choices are very limited. Once I actually get to hear those Carvins I might like them. The verdict isn't in yet!

String Spacing: 15mm as I want. I like that. If you are talking about the nut spacing, that is a problem related to the 12" radius.

 

[lovethegrowl]

As it is been suggested, I would take in consideration looking for a bass with the specs you actually want (or at least as close as possible) and do few tweaks to "perfect" it…

I have no idea what is an AFFORDABLE option for a six string jazz bass.

First I will evaluate the Squier sound with the passive pots. Then we'll see what long term options I'll have to keep the Squier playable. If it sounds bad, or the action can't be maintained & salvaged at a reasonable price, I'll turn my Ibanez into my 6 string jazz bass-scrapping the Humbucker & TI strings.

 

[lovethegrowl]

Everything can be fix!!! but at what cost? is it worth it?

Bruce had it right!

BTW, of course washer can help a maxed TR, but it will not make that neck straight. For a medium/mid low action I can probably save it with a fret dress, but for a straight neck with low action it will need a FB re-true and refret…

'Save it' with a fret dressing? OK but 10 years down the road as the neck continues to warp from the stress of the 6 strings?

The cost of the FB re-true & refret?

Maybe the thing to do is finish just the passive electronics, then evaluate its potential based on its sound. If not to my liking selling it at a loss.