Stacked V/V.. separate Tone/Tone

[iiipopes]

Hmm.. if I go with the '60-61 Jbass wiring. Which value resistors should I use if the SG has humbuckers and I'll be using .022 caps

The original J-bass tone caps were .03 to the bridge pickup and .05 to the neck pickup; current "standardized values" being .033 and .047. The pots were 250kohm audio taper, and the isolation resistors (I think as above) 220kohm.

.022 - the guitar tone cap - really doesn't do much on a bass.

Seriously, if you want independent tone controls, the best way is as WalterW said is on a Les Paul and Rickenbacker 4001/3 basses: use a selector switch.

 

[BassGreaser]

Ok after some thought and really thinking about how complex the wiring would be for everything.. I will be leaving it stock V/V/T just how Gibson wired it.

 

[BassGreaser]

Here is how a stock SG Bass is wired.

(Above is the stock photo lifted from Gibson.com)

 

[RobbieK]

really thinking about how complex the wiring would be

Nah, it's super simple to do exactly what you asked for in the thread title. Unfortunately with this topic, there's lots of (well intentioned!) misunderstanding and misinformation.

Personally I'd wire it VBTT, but that's just me, and if you want VVTT with a vol stack, simply wire it like the Fender reissue. You've already got the diagram.

What about this schematic?

Definitely don't use the 60's fender one that line6man posted. It's a crap circuit. I've written long posts about this circuit, and why the resistors are so large etc etc, with diagrams, and I think I even posted a video about isolated tone controls at one stage...

Yes, the two tone controls will interact when both volume controls are maxed, but well, that's fine! You aren't hurting anything! And if you back both volumes off slightly (easy to do if you use a linear vol stack), you will have individual tone controls again, plus a slightly fuller tone.

If you want to wire it permanantly so you get this effect when the vols are at 100%, simply tweak the vols til you are happy with the sound, then remove the hot wires, measure the resistance between the wipers and the hot lug, and place a resistor of the same value between the vols and the jack. In fact, with a stack, it would be super easy to mount the resistors.

I've wired VVTT many times, and IME, the resistors are usually around 10-22K.

 

[BassGreaser]

Nah, it's super simple to do exactly what you asked for in the thread title. Unfortunately with this topic, there's lots of (well intentioned!) misunderstanding and misinformation.

Personally I'd wire it VBTT, but that's just me, and if you want VVTT with a vol stack, simply wire it like the Fender reissue. You've already got the diagram.



Definitely don't use the 60's fender one that line6man posted. It's a crap circuit. I've written long posts about this circuit, and why the resistors are so large etc etc, with diagrams, and I think I even posted a video about isolated tone controls at one stage...

Yes, the two tone controls will interact when both volume controls are maxed, but well, that's fine! You aren't hurting anything! And if you back both volumes off slightly (easy to do if you use a linear vol stack), you will have individual tone controls again, plus a slightly fuller tone.

If you want to wire it permanantly so you get this effect when the vols are at 100%, simply tweak the vols til you are happy with the sound, then remove the hot wires, measure the resistance between the wipers and the hot lug, and place a resistor of the same value between the vols and the jack. In fact, with a stack, it would be super easy to mount the resistors.

I've wired VVTT many times, and IME, the resistors are usually around 10-22K.

Thanks for the positive push. I do already have a CTS 500/500k audio taper pot..

What would be a better setup V/V/T or V/V/T/T?

 

[RobbieK]

What would be a better setup V/V/T or V/V/T/T?

With respect, you should wire it, then decide for yourself.

I do already have a CTS 500/500k pot

Personally, I'd recommend a linear taper for double vol wiring, especially with 500K, but again, you should wire it up and try for yourself.

If you go ahead and experiment with different pots and wiring etc, it's very important to use heatsink clips on pot lugs. This way you can use parts over and over again.

 

[40Hz]

My original plan was to run a Tonestyler Duo with a traditional tone pot and two volume controls

That might be your better option. You'll get a lot more usable voicings using a Tonestyler or similar cap switcher compared to two highly interactive tone pots. It'll also make it easier to find a setting you like again.

You could also do a standard tone pot in conjunction with a Wilde [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] to get a passive midrange type of control to go along with it if you're really feeling adventurous.

 

[BassGreaser]

That might be your better option. You'll get a lot more usable voicings using a Tonestyler or similar cap switcher compared to two highly interactive tone pots. It'll also make it easier to find a setting you like again.

You could also do a standard tone pot in conjunction with a Wilde [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] to get a passive midrange type of control to go along with it if you're really feeling adventurous.

The problem I'm having with going the Tonestyler route is a schematic of this exactly layout and/or someone local that is willing/knowledgeable enough to understand how it works.

 

[Will_White]

The problem I'm having is a schematic of this exactly layout and/or someone local that is willing/knowledgeable enough to understand how it works.

Just clarifying, I'm not familiar with stellartones products specifically, but your wanting to use the stellar tone in conjuction with a tone control so the tone controls the amount of cut? Thats simple just connect the hot and ground of the tonestyler in place of the tone cap in the standard V,V,T.

 

[40Hz]

The problem I'm having with going the Tonestyler route is a schematic of this exactly layout and/or someone local that is willing/knowledgeable enough to understand how it works.

The Tonestyler is a simplified "varitone" circuit. Basically think of it as a rotary switch that gives you your choice of between 6 and 11 (last I looked at one) capacitors.

A schematic for a basic varitone looks like this:

And here's a wiring diagram for a similar one if you're not comfortable with reading schematics. All these devices basically work the same.

If you take out the 1.5H choke in the schematic, what's left is more or less what Stellartone calls a Tonestyler. It's about as simple a circuit as it gets. You can build one yourself for under $10. The trick is finding a rotary switch that will fit into your control cavity. On a Gibson, that's not a problem since there's more than enough room. So in the above schematic you'll see capacitors ranging in value from .001 to .22 (which tells us this is probably intended for a guitar). Those 10M resistors are there to prevent a pop from being heard when you rotate the switch. They don't figure critically in the tone although they do have some minor effect on it since the total resistance and capacitance in the circuit ultimately determines the rolloff point for your tone settings. And they can be left out along with the choke as they are in the version shown in the wiring diagram.

Unless they've changed things, the way most people install a Tonestyler is as a complete replacement for their tone pot. Think of it as always playing with your tone control dimed - but switching among different capacitors to change the rolloff frequency rather than have a single fixed rolloff point from a single capacitor and varying the amount of highs you're shunting to ground (i.e. muting out) through it. Best way to think about it is a varitone changes your fundamental tone. A "tone" control varies the amount of highs you hear. But the basic tone is "baked in" due to it only having a single capacitor.

Installation should be easy for anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of guitar wiring.

 

[BassGreaser]

The Tonestyler is a simplified "varitone" circuit. Basically think of it as a rotary switch that gives you your choice of between 6 and 11 (last I looked at one) capacitors.

A schematic for a basic varitone looks like this:

View attachment 959554

And here's a wiring diagram for a similar one if you're not comfortable with reading schematics. All these devices basically work the same.

View attachment 959558

If you take out the 1.5H choke in the schematic, what's left is more or less what Stellartone calls a Tonestyler. It's about as simple a circuit as it gets. You can build one yourself for under $10. The trick is finding a rotary switch that will fit into your control cavity. On a Gibson, that's not a problem since there's more than enough room. So in the above schematic you'll see capacitors ranging in value from .001 to .22 (which tells us this is probably intended for a guitar). Those 10M resistors are there to prevent a pop from being heard when you rotate the switch. They don't figure critically in the tone although they do have some minor effect on it since the total resistance and capacitance in the circuit ultimately determines the rolloff point for your tone settings. And they can be left out along with the choke as they are in the version shown in the wiring diagram.

Unless they've changed things, the way most people install a Tonestyler is as a complete replacement for their tone pot. Think of it as always playing with your tone control dimed - but switching among different capacitors to change the rolloff frequency rather than have a single fixed rolloff point from a single capacitor and varying the amount of highs you're shunting to ground (i.e. muting out) through it. Best way to think about it is a varitone changes your fundamental tone. A "tone" control varies the amount of highs you hear. But the basic tone is "baked in" due to it only having a single capacitor.

Installation should be easy for anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of guitar wiring.

Thanks for the great info. The sad part is most techs in Austin are hobbyist and don't have experience in wiring harness design. So if the schematic isn't exactly how to layout is they won't know what to do.. specially if it has something wild like a Tonestyler and a traditional tone knob

 

[40Hz]

Thanks for the great info. The sad part is most techs in Austin are hobbyist and don't have experience in wiring harness design. So if the schematic isn't exactly how to layout is they won't know what to do.. specially if it has something wild like a Tonestyler and a traditional tone knob

There's a book (400+ page PDF) that was a true labor of love done by a guy calling himself Caedfel. It has just about every bass wiring scheme you can think of. It's availble free for the download on Google Docs. Just google "Caedfel bass wiring diagrams." It's in German. But it's easy enough to follow. And you can always run any word you don't understand through any online translator.

If you can't find it, send me a pm and I'll send you a link.

 

[line6man]

Thanks for the great info. The sad part is most techs in Austin are hobbyist and don't have experience in wiring harness design. So if the schematic isn't exactly how to layout is they won't know what to do.. specially if it has something wild like a Tonestyler and a traditional tone knob

For the third time, it is important to understand the difference between a schematic and a diagram. A schematic will NOT tell you anything about how to wire a bass. It shows only the intended function of the circuit. A diagram is what shows you the layout of the wiring. You are looking for diagrams, and schematics will be of no use.

 

[40Hz]

For the third time, it is important to understand the difference between a schematic and a diagram. A schematic will NOT tell you anything about how to wire a bass. It shows only the intended function of the circuit. A diagram is what shows you the layout of the wiring. You are looking for diagrams, and schematics will be of no use.

I think he already understands that.

 

[line6man]

I think he already understands that.

Apparently not, if the wrong terms are still being used.

In any case, thankfully, there are plenty of diagrams available for every conceivable wiring scheme.

 

[BassGreaser]

Sorry I meant diagram. I'll be going with a V/V/T/T setup for now.

Down the road I'll try the Tonestyler

 

[Antisyzygy]

Thanks for the great info. The sad part is most techs in Austin are hobbyist and don't have experience in wiring harness design. So if the schematic isn't exactly how to layout is they won't know what to do.. specially if it has something wild like a Tonestyler and a traditional tone knob

Look up KellingSound on EBay. He makes custom harnesses with varitones and all manner of stuff and can make them solderless even. They're pretty much drop in even if you have to solder a few leads in.

Also, I put a VT VT setup in my SB-2. I used a wiring that will let me isolate a pickup's tone knob if I roll the pickup volume down a bit.

In practice it gives you a couple extra tones you couldn't get before but most of them are similar to just having two volumes and one master tone knob. I don't mean to dog it as its not useless, but set your expectations. It's not going to make the bass much more versatile but it does give you some extra tones to play with.

I think a VT VT setup like mine with a Les Paul pickup selector switch would be the best way to go. Then you could preset tones and switch between them or use the dual tones for some different sounds. Best of all worlds.

 

[Antisyzygy]

Sorry I meant diagram. I'll be going with a V/V/T/T setup for now.

Down the road I'll try the Tonestyler

There's a thread that should help you out :

1960s Jazz Bass - Isolated Dual Stacked Vol/Tones - How does it affect tone?


KellingSound on eBay can also do whatever you want. I have no affiliation but he made me some custom harnesses before. Mostly varitones because I'm lazy and he's cheap.

I soldered that VT VT harness in the thread above by myself though.

 

[BassGreaser]

There's a thread that should help you out :

1960s Jazz Bass - Isolated Dual Stacked Vol/Tones - How does it affect tone?


KellingSound on eBay can also do whatever you want. I have no affiliation but he made me some custom harnesses before. Mostly varitones because I'm lazy and he's cheap.

I soldered that VT VT harness in the thread above by myself though.

Thanks for the info. I dropped the SG off at the tech yesterday and it should be finished Wednesday.

It will be stacked V/V and separate T/T with .022uf caps used on both tone controls

 

[BassGreaser]

Here is a question...

When running a V/V/T/T and having .022uf caps on both tone controls..

Would it be like having one .044uf cap when both tone controls are rolled down?