Standalone 210 Preference - Vertical/Horizontal

[Fajah]

For those of you who use a 210 as a standalone cab, do you find you prefer to play through it horizontally or vertically? Do you tend to notice any differences in tonal quality? Most of the threads deal with horizontal or vertical configurations when stacked.

 

[KJung]

I believe the same issues apply with a single 210 as a stack. Vertical will give you, I guess, slightly more even dispersion across the stage and room (I've never really noticed this 'comb filtering effect' with the bass guitar, but many talk about it like it's a night and day issue), and also lift that top speaker up a touch closer to your ear for better near field monitoring, and horizontal placement 'seems' to result in a little more low end presence that can help a small cab that might be pushed up to its limits.

The only 210 I currently own (Bergantino HT210s) has a diagonal speaker placement. I use it as Jim designed it... horizontal, and I guess the diagonal placement helps a touch with the speaker interference.. who knows! It is as even across the stage and room as anything else I've played!

 

[cnltb]

I put mine flat on the floor and get along just fine.

 

[Fajah]

The only 210 I currently own (Bergantino HT210s) has a diagonal speaker placement. I use it as Jim designed it... horizontal, and I guess the diagonal placement helps a touch with the speaker interference.. who knows! It is as even across the stage and room as anything else I've played!

Having an HS210, I'm familiar with the diagonal placement of the speakers. I wasn't aware that it was actually designed to be used horizontally. Learn something new all the time. I've always used it vertically stacked but never as a standalone on a gig or a jam session. Just at home where it's usually horizontal. I wonder if all 210 cabs are designed to be used one way or the other.

 

[KJung]

Having an HS210, I'm familiar with the diagonal placement of the speakers. I wasn't aware that it was actually designed to be used horizontally. Learn something new all the time. I've always used it vertically stacked but never as a standalone on a gig or a jam session. Just at home where it's usually horizontal. I wonder if all 210 cabs are designed to be used one way or the other.

My definition of 'as designed' is the way the brand badge is oriented. I assume the builder orients the brand badge based on the way the builder anticipates the user positioning the cab. I don't think this is an issue of the cab will work differently one way or the other though, it will just look a little 'funky' in the 'opposite to builder design orientation'.

With diagonal speaker, IMO even the slight difference that I hear in orientation would even be 'slighter', so kind of a moot point to me.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

For those of you who use a 210 as a standalone cab, do you find you prefer to play through it horizontally or vertically? Do you tend to notice any differences in tonal quality? Most of the threads deal with horizontal or vertical configurations when stacked.

Having the drivers horizontal results in a midrange dispersion angle that's half that of a vertical placement. You might not notice it, the audience will.

I assume the builder orients the brand badge based on the way the builder anticipates the user positioning the cab.

The orientation is based on how the builder assumes the buyer will find that cab 'looks better', and thus how well they'll sell. As this reoccurring subject makes clear the majority of players are unaware of how dispersion is related to driver position, and in fact think that a wider sound source gives wider dispersion, when the opposite is the case. Unfortunately a pretty high percentage of manufacturers are also apparently unaware of this as well.

 

[Fajah]

Having the drivers horizontal results in a midrange dispersion angle that's half that of a vertical placement. You might not notice it, the audience will.

The orientation is based on how the builder assumes the buyer will find that cab 'looks better', and thus how well they'll sell. As this reoccurring subject makes clear the majority of players are unaware of how dispersion is related to driver position, and in fact think that a wider sound source gives wider dispersion, when the opposite is the case. Unfortunately a pretty high percentage of manufacturers are also apparently unaware of this as well.

So what you're saying is that for a more focused, outward sound, the cab should be horizontal, and vertical if you want to sound to be more dispersed. If this in fact the case, I find it interesting because of an experience I'm having in a particular gig situation.

We have a standing monthly engagement at this one bar. It's small and we're kind of shoved in a corner. I've been using both my cabs (112/210) with the 210 stacked vertically on top of the 112. With this configuration, our guitar players find that I really fill the area that we play even though the overall volume is balanced out where the audience is. Because of this, I started to just use my 112 on it's own which I know to be really focused and the guitar players notice a big difference. However, I do miss the tone I get with both cabs combined.

Although it wouldn't "look as cool", if I had my 112 stacked on top my horizontally placed 210, the sound would tend to be focused outward. And if I decided to use my 210 on it's own instead the 112 for this particular gig situation, it should be placed horizontally.

 

[KJung]

So what you're saying is that for a more focused, outward sound, the cab should be horizontal, and vertical if you want to sound to be more dispersed. If this in fact the case, I find it interesting because of an experience I'm having in a particular gig situation.

We have a standing monthly engagement at this one bar. It's small and we're kind of shoved in a corner. I've been using both my cabs (112/210) with the 210 stacked vertically on top of the 112. With this configuration, our guitar players find that I really fill the area that we play even though the overall volume is balanced out where the audience is. Because of this, I started to just use my 112 on it's own which I know to be really focused and the guitar players notice a big difference. However, I do miss the tone I get with both cabs combined.

Although it wouldn't "look as cool", if I had my 112 stacked on top my horizontally placed 210, the sound would tend to be focused outward. And if I decided to use my 210 on it's own instead the 112 for this particular gig situation, it should be placed horizontally.

IMO, there is SO much confounding going on (corner, 12 cab versus 210 cab, specific room, volume and mix) that saying one configuration is 'better' than another is almost impossible. This seems to be a 'use your ears' situation, and try a bunch of different stuff.

I don't think it's a matter of 'outward focused' or not. From my understanding, having speakers next to each other (i.e., horizontal) can have some impact on the dispersion of upper midrange (I believe primarily 1K and up). So, depending on how much of that upper mid, lower treble you have in your tone, there could be an advantage to placing your 210 vertically (I don't think there is much downside). However, with the placement of the walls, the size of the room, your particular tone, etc., etc., it's hard to translate what will sound best. Another way to think about it is that moving your stack closer or farther from the corner would most probably impact your tone much more than vertical/horizontal cab configuration (especially with a less zingy bass guitar tone profile), etc.

 

[tallboybass]

For those of you who use a 210 as a standalone cab, do you find you prefer to play through it horizontally or vertically? Do you tend to notice any differences in tonal quality? Most of the threads deal with horizontal or vertical configurations when stacked.

Always vertical....helps me hear.

 

[greenboy]

Each o represents a driver.

The other rough lines represent the dispersion pattern radiating outward, with no interaction yet from reflective surfaces. (Were these illustrations not ascii art, the shapes would be more like ovals.)

Drivers side by side (horizontal placement):

        ___
       / _ \
      / / \ \
     / /   \ \
    | |     | |
    | | o o | |
    | |     | |
     \ \   / /
      \ \_/ /
       \___/

Drivers one above the other (vertical placement):

    ____________
   / ___________ \
  / /           \ \
 / /      o      \ \
 \ \      o      / /
  \ \___________/ /
   \_____________/

You can see that the drivers paired with one above the other radiate their energy across the listening field wider instead radiating more energy toward ceiling and floor. This has the benefit of not only giving better audience coverage, but also not getting so many early reflections off the closer floor and ceiling, which generally improves intelligibility.

 

[KJung]

Each o represents a driver.

The other rough lines represent the dispersion pattern radiating outward, with no interaction yet from reflective surfaces. (Were these illustrations not ascii art, the shapes would be more like ovals.)

Drivers side by side (horizontal placement):

        ___
       / _ \
      / / \ \
     / /   \ \
    | |     | |
    | | o o | |
    | |     | |
     \ \   / /
      \ \_/ /
       \___/

Drivers one above the other (vertical placement):

    ____________
   / ___________ \
  / /           \ \
 / /      o      \ \
 \ \      o      / /
  \ \___________/ /
   \_____________/

You can see that the drivers paired with one above the other radiate their energy across the listening field wider instead radiating more energy toward ceiling and floor. This has the benefit of not only giving better audience coverage, but also not getting so many early reflections off the closer floor and ceiling, which generally improves intelligibility.

Isn't this frequency specific?

 

[greenboy]

Isn't this frequency specific?

Yes. But the midrange and treble output adhere roughly to this - ie one pattern is going to be heard wider, and the other as narrower... As frequencies in the broadband signal get higher, driver size itself limits the off-axis response/dispersion though - and the lower frequency content becomes more omnidirectional in dispersion, roughly becoming more all-directional below 250 Hz.

What's most relevant however is how the all-important information in the midrange disperses.

 

[KJung]

Yes. But the midrange and treble output adhere roughly to this - ie one pattern is going to be heard wider, and the other as narrower... As frequencies in the broadband signal get higher, driver size itself limits the off-axis response/dispersion though - and the lower frequency content becomes more omnidirectional in dispersion, roughly becoming more all-directional below 250 Hz.

What's most relevant however is how the all-important information in the midrange disperses.

+1 again, surely no disadvantage to tiltin' that 210 into vertical position in general, and I assume the 'diagonal' placement that a few 210's use is an effort to kind of 'walk the line' between the more horizontal platform many prefer to stack racks on top of, etc., and also not having a 10 and tweeter blaring directly in your ear with a 210 x 2 stack, and the frequency dispersion show by your graphs.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So what you're saying is that for a more focused, outward sound, the cab should be horizontal.

I wouldn't call it focused, beaming is the technical description. I personally can't think of an instance where beaming is a good thing, unless you want to piss off the old lady sitting at Table 3 directly in front of your cab.
The situation worsens as you go higher in frequency and larger with driver size, explaining why guitar 2x12 and 4x12 cabs have such horrible dispersion.

 

[Fajah]

I wouldn't call it focused, beaming is the technical description. I personally can't think of an instance where beaming is a good thing, unless you want to piss off the old lady sitting at Table 3 directly in front of your cab.
The situation worsens as you go higher in frequency and larger with driver size, explaining why guitar 2x12 and 4x12 cabs have such horrible dispersion.

I can understand how beaming wouldn't be a good thing Learning allot so far and really appreciate the responses. It's helping me to shed some light on conversations I've had with my bandmates where sound is concerned.

 

[dcallred]

The first time I played out with my 2x10 I had it horizontal and I couldn't hear myself all night. I was afraid I had undersized my amp. I got a new power amp for my rack and the next time out I set it up vertical. I still had a slight problem hearing it in the mix but most times it was fine. In the middle of the night another bass player got up and jammed a few tunes. From the audience the bass was really loud, but it was still a little hard to hear on stage. So I tried putting it vertical on a chair. I can hear myself now! In fact I need to walk away from my rig to make sure I'm not too loud or quiet in the mix. My next move is to replace the chair with another 2x10. I think a 2x10 would be a better "bass" than a chair.

 

[KJung]

The first time I played out with my 2x10 I had it horizontal and I couldn't hear myself all night. I was afraid I had undersized my amp. I got a new power amp for my rack and the next time out I set it up vertical. I still had a slight problem hearing it in the mix but most times it was fine. In the middle of the night another bass player got up and jammed a few tunes. From the audience the bass was really loud, but it was still a little hard to hear on stage. So I tried putting it vertical on a chair. I can hear myself now! In fact I need to walk away from my rig to make sure I'm not too loud or quiet in the mix. My next move is to replace the chair with another 2x10. I think a 2x10 would be a better "bass" than a chair.

So, what do you think had the most impact... the new amp, raising the cab, possibly a different room versus your previous experience, or repositioning the cab from horizontal to vertical?

 

[dcallred]

I'd say it was raising the cabinet up where I could hear it. I've always had taller cabinets like the 2x15 and the 1820. The 2x10 is too short for what I am use to hearing. I haven't noticed any difference in sound out on the dance floor between vertical or horizontal or on the chair. It seems to be the same to me out there, so the main thing is for me to hear it on stage.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I have recently been using a Dr. Bass 2460 Neo cabinet and to get it off the floor I bought a metal luggage/suitcase stand, which is just the right thing!

 

[4Mal]

The largest issue with a 2x10 is getting away from the cab. If you orient vertically, one of those 10's is going to be higher up off the floor, closer to your ear - that helps in the stage monitoring aspect. In really small rooms, I'll go as far as to locate the cab on the other side of the drummer and point it in my direction - that helps and in small rooms the smaller verticle foot print helps too. The PITA in that situation is that your amp is across a drum set and Omar the drummer is a dip sh_t when it comes to - 'say, can you pull up the hi-mids a bit and drop the low mid's a scootch ?' so I use a floor box for 'local' adjustments to gain and EQ. Not optimal, but effective. For live work that is often enough.

The comb filtering thing is for real, particularly in a 'square configured' 4x10. You won't hear it on stage, the problems manifest way out front wear you get hot spots. You probably have heard it as you wandered around a club looking for the right spot to hear bass 'n drums with an 'off-mix'. Part of the weirdness was that comb filtering thing... 4 10's can be cool... in 2 2x10's stacked vertically... one of tmy fave setups.

Anyway - put the 2x10 on it's end and get as far away from it as you can is my advice...